It's Game ON: Young v. Trump
“This complaint is not intended to disrespect the rights and opinions of American citizens, who are free to support the candidate of their choosing. However, Plaintiff in good conscience cannot allow his music to be used as a ‘theme song’ for a divisive, un-American campaign of ignorance and hate.
The Campaign has willfully ignored Plaintiff’s telling it not to play the songs and willfully proceeded to play the songs despite a lack of license.”
Young’s lawyers are asking for statutory damages in the maximum amount allowed for copyright infringement.
Previously, Neil Young has “continuously and publicly” objected to his music being used by Trump going back to 2015 on his website NYA. Background here and below.
DEVELOPING
In response to Neil's challenge, Donald Trump Used 3 Neil Young Songs At Mount Rushmore Event.
More on all the drama:
- "Battle of Two Songs: Anti-Trump Neil Young vs. Black Pro-Trump Lloyd Marcus" | RenewAmerica.com
Neil Young's Open Letter To President Trump
— ThrashersWheat (@ThrashersWheat) July 7, 2020
See https://t.co/uu8VscW375
☮️♥️@NeilYoungNYA pic.twitter.com/YZVWlhbU4U
"Battle of Two Songs: Anti-Trump Neil Young vs. Black Pro-Trump Lloyd Marcus"
— ThrashersWheat (@ThrashersWheat) July 13, 2020
See https://t.co/V5FsMY6fWd
☮️♥️@NeilYoungNYA pic.twitter.com/FoWsc6xDdC
Is Trump suggesting a connection between Neil Young's song “Devil’s Sidewalk” and "The Invisible Enemy"?
— ThrashersWheat (@ThrashersWheat) May 24, 2020
See https://t.co/SW74jSX8hS
☮️♥️@NeilYoungNYA #NeilYoung #CrazyHorse4HOF#DontSpookTheHorse #MoreBarn #MayTheHorseBeWithYou #BeTheRain pic.twitter.com/v94BR6s5qp
George & John, Donald & Neil + Bob: Sooner or Later, It All Gets REAL ... As in Now
— ThrashersWheat (@ThrashersWheat) July 26, 2020
See https://t.co/YTBfrLJ9j8
☮️♥️@NeilYoungNYA @bobdylan pic.twitter.com/CkMrdWJhSL
Donald Trump & Neil Young Tangle Yet Again Over Use of Music At Events OR Donnie, Ronnie & Neil: Southern Man and The Un-Civil Wars of Donald Trump & Neil Young or Rebels with Causes w/ Northern Man
— ThrashersWheat (@ThrashersWheat) July 4, 2020
See https://t.co/x53zebwGBi
☮️♥️@NeilYoungNYA @realDonaldTrump #4thofJuly pic.twitter.com/y53jPk2TMA
Labels: donald trump, lawsuit, neil young
by thrasher@PermaLink: 8/04/2020 02:49:00 PM
32 comments
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32 Comments:
After five years of attempting to deal with this situation by asking the president to stop, Neil has finally realized that he must deal with the issue in the only way the president can understand. Hopefully this will bring closure to a regrettable and unnecessary problem. Neil made every attempt to curtail the use of his music, only to have his wishes continually ignored. A sad state of affairs, and avoidable if the president hadn’t been so entitled and stubborn.
Good luck Neil, you’re about to go to battle with a very powerful madman with friends in all the wrong places. It will be very interesting to see how far this actually goes.
Peace 🙏
I recently came across this quotation from the late filmmaker Nicolas Roeg, published in the biography "Fragile Geometry" by Joseph Lanza.
"If [Reagan and Gorbachev] were forced to wear jester hats with dangling bells instead of suits and ties... their summit would be worth watching [...] That's what politics has become. Total nonsense. It's not even worth reading about in the papers, but if these serious media figures appeared in drag or something like that, it would make so much more sense."
Roeg was speaking in the late '80s, but you can easily substitute the names of our current leaders in place of Reagan and Gorbachev. Also wonderfully apropos is Roeg's choice of image, recognizing the power of drag as a vehicle of satire insofar as it draws attention to the excess and absurdity of both political and gender performance by self-consciously reproducing it, showing the fragility and short-sightedness of some of our rituals and taboos by joyfully breaking them.
A number of Roeg's statements from back then seem relevant now:
"We live in reactionary times. When you take a big step forward, as we did in the '60s and early '70s, there's always that small step back. The reactionary wave has affected everything: films, literature, politics, computers, plumbing. This is the time of return [...] Those in the advanced camp will find themselves in back of the line tomorrow. As for me, I'm just getting by."
~Through the keyhole in an open door.
I nearly forgot. If Trump is looking for an accurate campaign anthem, perhaps he might consider this one, courtesy of G. Nash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N3HrYOGpNQ
@ Dan - thanks as always for the thoughts.
Yes, it does seem like we're stuck in a bad sitcom re-run on a loop.
It remains unclear whether the suit has been officially filed?
There are blanks in key areas. Specific defendants have yet to be added.
Maybe just a draft? A trial balloon maybe? A Neil headfake for Donald?
@ Meta Rocker - thanks for the quote by Man Who Fell To Earth director.
Maybe it's The MEN Who Fell To Earth?!
Thanks for link and we'll check out.
It's all gotten beyond surreal ....
As to the legalities and plausibility of an actual lawsuit going forward, I don't know the details and I'm not entirely concerned. As I've said before, it's up to NY how he chooses to protect his intellectual properties.
That said, Neil has previously participated in and affirmed the so-called "folk process", in which songs pass into the public domain and are treated as shared properties, subject to revisions over the years by various groups and individuals in their evolving social contexts. That's kinda the opposite of what's going on now, with Neil signaling an intention to clamp down on certain questionable appropriations of his work.
As a writer and academic, I have mixed feelings about the notion of intellectual property. Of course, I don't want my (or anyone else's) heartfelt expressions abused or pressed into the service of agendas I find unethical. But at the same time, it seems that in spite of the need to protect and promote creative innovation, the risk of intellectual property law is that--if interpreted too broadly and loosely--ideas themselves may become subject to strict private ownership, like seemingly everything else in our competitive, insular society, instead of going directly into the pool of inspiration and insight from which we can all freely draw in an effort to make tomorrow better than today.
Private property is something I think about a lot, even when walking our dog, who of course doesn't see property lines and doesn't care whose land he leaves his mark on. Walking around the block, every square foot is owned by somebody and I hesitate to let the dog stray too far off the sidewalk and into the grass verge; even though he's doing no harm (and has a dutiful human waiting to clean up after his messes), other people might not see it that way and you just don't know who's who, it seems.
The dog likely isn't thinking about any of this. That anxiety rests with me. The dog has his own anxieties of course--about all the bad weather and fireworks we're inundated with during the summer months, about being left alone when we all go off to work and school--but these seem, somehow, to operate at a more primal, instinctive level. Whereas my fears, at least, are processed and extruded through the minute circuitry of the human intellect.
Given how isolating and tension-saturated the mind can be, it seems a shame that, in our noble pursuit of individual life and liberty, there's so little left here that we can share on a concrete, day-to-day basis. Music is best shared, too, as with all art, imho, even (maybe especially) when the ego threatens to get in the way of allowing others to relate to a song in their own way. Much as I believe Neil is morally in the right to set some terms on the use of his work, I worry in the long term about the consequences of carrying the ongoing commodification of art and therefore thought (of which the practice of piping in popular songs at political and other public events is itself symptomatic) to its most extreme logical conclusions.
As to my suggestion for Trump's anthem, it is both sardonic and born of a moment's empathy toward the unfolding tragedy that is his political career. Teach your children well.
~Through the keyhole in an open door.
@ Meta Rocker - checked out the YT link, thnx. yep, "King Midas In Reverse" seems very appropriate for these contrarian times in which we live.
Likewise, we also have very mixed feelings about intellectual property.
there is a line somewhere in the counterfeit/bootleg market and what is known as "fair use".
The term sampling emerged when DJs would mix together various snippets into something new. Rulings were all over the map as to what was "fair use" appropriation and what violated copyright.
And then there is the case in point here where an artist has flat out declared that someone, i.e. Pres Trump simply can't use his music whatsoever.
So. Is that discrimination? Can an artist even discriminate? My music is only avail to D's but R's. hmmm.
If this ever makes it to court, the ruling will be quite interesting, to say the least.
Some say Neil has no case whatsoever. Others do.
Obviously, if Trump campaign is playing Neil's music without even paying the std licensing fee, then he clearly has a case. But that seems to be rather stupid & cheap of Trump campaign not to cough up a relatively small fee.
you know, when all of this started swirling about several years ago, it began to strike us as to what the heck was going on? It was like 2 worlds colliding. 2 trains barreling down the track in game of chicken.
And that's what this looks like. Who will blink?
As noted above, is this a head fake?
Sometimes when Trump detractors are trying to score points, they like to point out what a fan of pro wrestling he is/was.
well, if you know anything about the "sport" of pro wrestling then you know it is one big giant fake that everyone is in on. even the audience knows it's all a total setup for total entertainment. And politics is very much analogous to pro wrestling, except voters don't seem to get that.
to be clear, we do not imply that Neil is in on a big con job here to sell some records.
yet, there would be those who would cynically -- understandably so -- say this is a great thing for Neil and his career and sales.
OTOH, we truly believe that Neil is just heartsick at the mere thought of his music being used in this way to promote something he doesn't support.
which brings us back to why RITFW? Why DS?
well, here's why ....
RITFW: http://neilyoungnews.thrasherswheat.org/2020/07/george-john-donald-neil-bob-sooner-or.html
DS: http://neilyoungnews.thrasherswheat.org/2020/05/donald-trump-plays-neil-youngs-song.html
It seems pretty obvious after giving this some analysis that there is some major dog whistling going on here ...
can you hear it? can you see it? or can you believe it?
the illusion crumbles ...
NOT LFAL b/c #WT1sWBW4
I don’t see Neil doing this with any intention of actually winning this case, let alone it even going to court. This looks like he’s just trying to make a bigger statement with more weight and more direct than a tiny post on his Twitter page. Neil is making a statement about how it feels to be disrespected. Neil has strong feelings about this man in the White House, and went so far as becoming a US Citizen just so he can vote against the guy.
I don’t think any of this would be happening had the president been willing to be a gentleman and respect Neil’s requests. Have we forgotten how to be civil and respectful towards each other? Can we not take the time for individual accountability and integrity. Has independent thought completely vanished?
This isn’t about the law, it’s about integrity.
Peace 🙏
I applaud your even-handed comments, Thrasher.
With that said, I think Neil is doing some over-the-top virtue signaling here.
He can't possibly be seen as anything but hostile to Mr. Trump...you know since Trump is a Republican...and we know what that means (racist,etc.)
the entire thing makes me chuckle...I happen to love both men's work & see no contradiction there...one has filled me life with songs & the other has helped my bank account (yes I said it).
oh well...
my life
@ Jonathan - thanks for dropping by.
we've had some history here over the years, so we appreciate the feedback and the opportunity to try and find that hallowed middle ground of co-existence.
Funny, but Trump has been a lifelong Democrat and only converted when he ran for President.
When Trump was a Dem, Hillary and Bill Clinton loved him and supported Trump. Trump hung out with the Kennedy's. And obviously, Neil & Donald got along up until recently.
But once Trump changed jersey colors from Blue to Red, all hell has broken loose.
What changed suddenly? Did Trump? Did the Clintons? Did Neil?
Some sort of wired cosmic blip in the matrix rearranging all of the political atoms into some new alchemy?
they'll remember in November ...
anyways, as strange & convoluted as it might seem, we are attempting balance here.
As a longtimer, you'll recall the LWW days when this blog came to prominence by playing a mediating role in the Let's Impeach The President crowd vs Let's Bomb All The Muslims in the Middle East Fast crowd. Man, talk about throw your hatred down ...
that might seem an extreme takeaway from 2006 LWW era, but go back and read those comments, and that was what TW was like back then.
http://neilyoungnews.thrasherswheat.org/2006/05/freedom-of-speech-csny-2006-concert.html
We're not looking to have Civil War 2.0 here on TW yet again, but at the same time, the extremism of both sides is appalling, unhealthy and frankly kinda predictable and boring. that's why this Young vs Trump somehow just doesn't feel right and smells of gamesmanship. High level 3D chess, for sure.
peace
With so many liars, derelicts & thieves in both major political parties I can't understand why anyone would align them self with either. I honestly believe that Chuck Schumer & Mitch McConnell are eating $5,000 lunches together in DC backrooms laughing at how the american public has bought into 1 side being better than the other while they squander millions of our tax dollars.
Schumer and McConnell aren’t the only ones laughing. The rest of the world is laughing.
Peace 🙏
@thrasher—I suppose I count as a Trump detractor, but I’m not looking to score points. I’d much rather make change, even in these smoke ring days when the wind blows.
@Jonathan, as I try to be even-handed, “virtue signaling”, which has become somewhat of a dog whistle idea in itself, exists on all sides inasmuch as it exists at all. However, it seems we live in times when one person’s virtue is another’s vice. I know Republican does not=racist. I just wish more elected and influential GOPers would come out and say so more often, in more definite and concrete ways. I’m partly descended from independent-spirited, sturdy and proud, “live free or die” New Englanders, so I understand what Republican used to stand for, before the southern strategy and Moral Majority.
While it’s naive to think the sea change of the South from Dem to GOP had no connection to the Civil Rights movement, the fact is that a functioning democracy requires more than one (and optimally more than two) viable parties. Single-party rule tends to invite authoritarianism—totalitarianism—and that is what kills. So while I have strong views on a variety of issues, I do want to see a stronger, fairer system based on communication, pluralism, and a willingness to compromise in the common interest.
Impassioned as I may be, I’m not actually trying to drive people away. That’s why I object to your persistent caricaturing of Democrats or liberal progressives, It amounts to ad hominem via strawman. You may be trying to give some people a taste of their own medicine, but it strains my confidence in what I fervently want to believe is your interest in good faith, constructive conversation. Generally, folks need to let their claims and arguments stand for themselves; own what you believe, rather than preemptively lunging for moral high ground by unfairly tarring those who may disagree. I’m opinionated; I wear my heart on my sleeve; I make mistakes, which I try to own and move on productively. I hope this message, along with my others, comes across in that spirit.
And. @Dan, thanks for your heartfelt words. I hear you and sympathize.
Om Shanti.
~Through the keyhole in an open door.
@
@Thrasher, Trump ran, or tried to, on the Reform Party ticket back in 2000–also known as the party of Pat Buchanon. Make what you will of that; it is historical fact that many seem to have forgotten. Trump has been slippery about party allegiances for some time. Imho, he wants to attach himself to the winning side, the in-crowd, and believe it or not, that was the Clintons’ Democratic coalition at one time. At some point, Trump figured the Democrats, for all their faults, weren’t going to be his meal ticket. He figured out that his surest way to power was instead to leverage chaotic, growing right-wing populist movement.
Neil, too, has been changeable and nuanced in his views, but the difference is that he has shown much greater integrity, and although he can surely be self-centered, much stronger commitment to the common good than anything we’ve seen from POTUS45.
Om Shanti.
@ Ian : Your statement “own what you believe” is part of living life in integrity.
Ideals are spouted from both sides of the government only with the intention to placate. Tell em’ what they wanna hear, then go back to business as usual. It’s reactionary and serves no other purpose but to create the myth that government actually wants to solve anything.
This is just an example of the complete lack of integrity inherent in our government. No one is courageous enough to speak their truth, and endanger their status and wealth. If one is going to live a life of integrity it requires risk, and most people are not willing to jeopardize their status quo doing what is right if it is at odds with the majority.
Neil asked the question, Who’s gonna stand up. So far it doesn’t look like anyone is willing to, and unfortunately that leaves us with deflection and deception which gets us nowhere.
Thrashers is making the effort here for inclusivity, so everyone, please own what you believe.
Peace 🙏
Rarely do I ever revisit a comment blog once I post
but this is too much fun
everyone is a flaming hypocrite here
no I don’t worship Trump but he’s been a welcome grenade in the sewer of DC
With reference to Jonathan's latest reply: that, everyone, is why I reach boiling point on occasion. I put a great deal of thought and feeling into expressing myself as honestly and openly as I know how, and what do I get in return? Hey, I'm only human: I can bring my input to the table in a level-headed way, prepared to speak and listen and assuming that good faith is shared by others, or you can push and push...
That teaches me to choose my battles more carefully before wasting energy in future.
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I'm not going to engage the troll.
The reason the lawsuit is uncertain is that the arena in OK had paid a blanket use ASCAP/BMI fee, so as an artist who has received whatever those fees generate it's difficult to selectively deny use of the music covered.
It was at some factory visit that someone put "Devil's Sidewalk" on the PA, which I heard as being a wonderful "f*ck you" to the visitor, though just background sound to the casual listener. The content of "DS" certainly presents the presence of evil in an ambiguous way, as being omnipresent and inevitable.
...more here in the Hollywood Reporter about the ASCAP/BMI issue-
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/neil-young-sues-donald-trump-campaign-copyright-infringement-1305863
The person who said Trump has helped him with his bank account? Flaming hypocrites?
Just under the surface of civility and a "willingness to listen" is this nasty disposition. Trump is pushing millions of people to financial desperation and ruin. Now of all times to think first about one's own financial condition is a betrayal of our common bonds (which are all that much more important given the fragility of democracy).
And, for the life of me, I do not understand how "flaming hypocrite" applies. What the hell is "virtue signaling?" You might first want to read some account of the virtues, perhaps Aristotle is a good place to start, Ethics. Read books I-IV.
@Abner Snopes, "Virtue signaling" has little to do with classical virtues or vices. I give the concept very limited credence, but it has to do with (usually) right-leaning folks accusing other people of taking up positions on contentious social or political issues simply to look good, for social credibility, rather than out of genuine moral conviction. I use left vs. right language here fully aware that it's reductive, but it's for lack of better words, unfortunately. And while of course I can't ever claim to know Neil's motivations, everything I've read and heard suggests he isn't one for emptying posturing.
Also, although I am unqualified to comment on behalf of anyone's bank account other than my own--with GDP shrinking by nearly a third in the last quarter and the senate GOP, at least up until quite recently, openly dithering about whether to continue any kind of relief measures at all, we will see who emerges from this morass running a net profit.
As to the person to whom your comments are primarily addressed, they have more than once attributed to others things we simply didn't say or do. The major hypocrisy I can see here is coming from the person who lauded thrasher's "even-handed comments", yet quickly resorted to taunts and insults in response to others. The lack of of a substantial argument there speaks for itself, although the lack of interest in sincere engagement is always disappointing in fellow humans.
@Dan: I truly appreciate your measured words and call for civility here. I can only hope I'm doing my part to honor my commitment to those ideals, while at the same time being honest about my own views. I maintain that my willingness to call foul when I see it doesn't mean I'm not committed to constructive, harmonious dialogue, yet there are times when it behooves one to strike a more condoling, conciliatory note, and for your effort in doing so, I thank you.
Nonetheless, as I've said, I'm merely human and,like most humans in my opinion and experience, capable of feeling less diplomatic when met with continued prodding and poor attitude. I'll even own up to being (sometimes) a hypocrite, as I think that's in human nature and most of us, in the heat of the moment, have likely said or done things we aren't proud of. As you said, so much of this comes down to simply owning one's beliefs, actions, and flaws. I hope we can learn from each other through each interaction and conversation, even if we don't come away having resolved differences or discovered much common ground.
~Om Shanti
@ All - generally, thanks to all here for keeping this relatively well measured during these difficult days of The Great Unraveling.
It's hot & tempers are short.
We include ourselves in this as well b/c we know how difficult it is to maintain composure when tensions run high.
as always, thanks for your insightful contributions -- once again demonstrating that Neil fans/rusties are some of the most knowledgeable and articulate music fans out there.
Om Shanti, peace, mahalo, pono
I should have guessed about the virtue signaling. Thrasher, I am currently in disbelief at the state of the union. It is going to take a long time to get this all straight if we do ever get it straight. I am helping our college with some pandemic procedures- meanwhile there is consistent worry opening up is going to kill some or many. We need to "shut it down" and arrest people for no masks. White suburban moms driving massive carbon gluttons and displaying a grotesque attitude. There is NO freedom of any sort without strict limits. Self-discipline is a necessary condition for a free society. The "right to not wear masks" is several steps beyond stupid and reckless: it will lead to more severe limits. Self-defeating people. Good to speak here on spare time with plenty of reasonable people.
I wear a mask because I don't want to risk hurting someone else. I also believe in Karma & figure if I don't wear one someone close to me may get the virus from someone not wearing one & die. I don't want that so I wear a mask.
I didn't read thru every comment here so let me off the hook if I'm repeating someone else's thoughts. 1st off I've seen elsewhere where Mr. Young has said that he's not intending to be disrespectful of anyone's right to support the candidate of their choice or something close to that.Well I don't see how he can split that hair so fine.If I as a conservative who wants and supports secure borders, supports the 2nd amendment, wants less Government intrusion in business and certainly less Government enforcement of political correctness even at the expense of religious liberty then Neil doesn't want me playing his music either. Tho I bet he doesn't mind me BUYING his music! So my choice is sell the music of his I have, just outright destroy it or maybe play it all the more while supporting my President. To quote another rock
group who themselves have quite a following "well I hope Neil Young will remember, a southern man don't need him around anyhow"!
@countyslave: To go from Neil Young not wanting his songs to be broadcast in public, repeatedly, at Trump campaign events to suggesting he doesn't want any "conservatives" to hear or invest in his music is, in my humble opinion, a bit of a leap. Among other things I could bring up, there are a number of self-identified conservatives who aren't the least bit taken with our current commander-in-chief, who himself doesn't seem to believe that political differences should keep him from appreciating Neil's music.
Your comments do, however, suggest the extent to which some conservatives and supporters of the president personally identify with their candidate--which is fascinating to me, especially in light of my consistent observations that some people who talk a good line about "freedom" harbor a marked authoritarian streak, regardless of much bluster and sentiment to the contrary.
While I won't address all your points, the line about "secure borders" is a persistent, and often deliberate, misrepresentation of those of us endorsing a pathway to citizenship, and one I feel needs to be challenged when the issue arises. To be frank, the only politicians I have heard using the phrase "open borders" are almost exclusively right-leaning. What most of us are talking about is a combination of border security for everyone's safety with a fair, reasonable, accessible set of opportunities for people who come to the US under the duress of famine, fear, or persecution. Many people come to this country under an incredible range of circumstances. Certainly, one imagines that most aren't doing this either for fun or in the interests of some form of sinister, neo-imperialist exploitation. And the modus vivendi shouldn't be throwing them all out, splitting families up, or detaining people in squalid conditions indefinitely.
Unfortunately, this level-headed approach doesn't grab headlines or impassion voters in the same way as blatant scare quotes, so a proper conversation on the topic is distressingly rare.
Incidentally, back in 2000, Neil named his ideal presidential/VP ticket as "Gore/McCain". Make of that what you will.
~Om Shanti
@ countryslave : With all due respect, your suggestion that Neil doesn’t want you to listen to his music seems a bit reactionary. Neil has made it very clear that he does not approve of the president playing his songs at his rallies, as he personally does not support the man. It is Neil’s right as the creator of his music to have a say in how it is used. As far as individuals listening for their own enjoyment, this is the whole purpose of releasing it in the first place. Neil has also been very adamant about his music not being used in commercial advertising as well.
Now, about you suggesting that you should destroy your Neil Young collection, I would encourage you to first listen to the song This Notes For You, before you do something you may regret later. The song makes it very clear where he stands as far as his music is concerned, and nowhere in this song does he suggest that your political beliefs are on trial. Take a deep breath and enjoy the music with the knowledge that it has nothing to do with you personally.
Peace 🙏
@Dan Swan, Thanks for your measured comments here. I fear I'm a little too blunt, at times, with my own views to be as effective as I'd like with regards to opening constructive dialogue. Tough sometimes to be simultaneously honest and welcoming of engagement.
@Ian Kertis: I don’t think you need to fear, as your comments are alway insightful and measured. Speaking for myself, they are also most welcome. You always seem to add something that helps move the conversation forward. So please keep em’ coming.
Peace 🙏
Maybe "fear" is the wrong, but I do get concerned that I'm occasionally less diplomatic than I set out to be.
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