Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young Reunite ... In Opposition to SPOTIFY
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young have reunited finally ... although only in terms of their joint opposition to SPOTIFY.
Last month, Neil Young published a letter on his website Monday afternoon demanding that Spotify remove all of his music due to Joe Rogan's "vaccine disinformation". And shortly thereafter -- all hell broke loose here on this blog and elsewhere. (See here, here and here)
In
a statement, David Crosby, Stephen Stills and
Graham Nash announced their support of Neil Young:
"We agree with him that the Joe Rogan podcast (broadcast on SPOTIFY) is spreading dangerous disinformation," the three musicians explain. Disinformation could be deadly in a pandemic. So they don't want their own music - or the music they make together - to be heard on the same platform as Rogan's podcast."
More on the Joe Rogan and Neil Young controversies swirling about below.
Joe Rogan and Neil Young
(thanks htH!)
Labels: #disCERNment, Crosby Stills Nash Young, csny, david crosby, graham nash, neil young, stephen stills
by thrasher@PermaLink: 2/03/2022 10:39:00 AM
43 comments
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43 Comments:
and the group-think continues...
As per NYA: Under Viewpoint you will find an excellent essay by former Spotify podcaster Roxanne Gay regarding this issue.
Thanks Dionys! That is a good read
https://neilyoungarchives.com/news/3
Dictorship of opinion! Welcome Fascism
Dictatorship
Jon Stewart says, "do not remove yourself from spotify, engage." I listened to several minutes of this. The question becomes, "engage in what"? Best to remove oneself from a context where NO criteria is enlisted, where there is total indifference or even hostility to adequate justification of belief. The whole culture is suffering from the abandonment of elementary epistemology. It really does look like many people are simply offering opinions within an epistemic vacuum. This is really, really dangerous. Best to entirely disengage and find some safety. What I am saying here does not force the conclusion that one must be disinterested or hostile to others. Instead, I am saying it may not be possible to be interested. When there is no criteria, it is a sheer accident if we get it right: not interested.
Not at all surprisingly, the mentioned Roxanne Gay-article featured the usual disinformation that have been falsely spread for some time now.
The first being that the letter demanding Rogan be banned from Spotify was signed by hundreds of doctors. There were around 80 practicing physicians in the list, while the rest were vets, nurses, assistants, researchers etc. 'experts'.
The second being that Ivermectin is a horse dewormer. It's actually been used on humans since the 1980's, and is a regular treatment for scabies, lice etc. and it's potential use in treating cancer and covid are currently under serious research. Some of the early results on covid have been encouraging, as it is showing antiviral effect.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/japans-kowa-says-ivermectin-effective-against-omicron-phase-iii-trial-2022-01-31/
a stronger version for animals' deworming is also on the market, but it's not common for the medicines to be used on both people and animals. Rogan's meds were prescribed by his doctor so pretty sure he was using the human version like Stromectol instead of a dewormer.
The most ridiculous of all claims though is the supposed racism in Rogan's show, which left me so baffled as a regular listener that I can not even think how to reply to this level of idiocy. A lot of that going around lately. At least it is getting hilariously bad and 'misinformed'.
Art
There's pretty much the problem. Roxanne Gay holds these information and her perception of racism on Rogan's show for true.
The number of doctors (MDs or PhDs) exceeds 200 (as per list on NYA), add those of the people (nurses and other staff) who carry most of the workload in intensive care units, who have a well-founded interest to have factual misrepresentation stopped, because they also have other life-saving, but covid-unrelated work to do, then the statement there are just 80 practicing physicians on the list is typical sidelining.
Assuming Roxanne Gay is right, one can come to the conclusion that one should not do business with Spotify.
If one prefers to be treated by a horse doctor and medication on which "serious research" is underway with respect to some antiviral effect to a vaccination that statistically saved hundred thousands of lives in my country alone already, fine. There a lots of quack-medications on the market, that they are traded as the secret formula to cure basically everything is nothing more than the usual charlatanesque camouflage.
On racism: Given the history of racism and my own (limited experience) in the United States I admit that I tend to first believe those who claim to be victims of racism, simply because most of their claims proved to be true. Outright racism deniers seeing one of their holy cows slaughtered should prove the opposite. This is not a court room, but a discussion. So please specify, why Gay is not right and please refrain from accusations like "idiocy". You know: When talking to and about idiots one has to make sure that people see the difference.
The racism in the United States is deeply historical and ecological. It is heinous and the only way it will ever be actually accounted for according to the standards of justice is through reparations.
When I referred to "this culture" I meant the stampede of right wing denial. WE better not try to teach the history, or dare to suggest that human reality is made up of systems (and not "individuals"). Oh no. Or, in this part of the country, you better line up with some kind of evangelical Christianity- you will not be elected dog catcher (and I have thought of running).
I echo Dionys: why is Gay wrong? Give some justifications for your claims.
This racism garbage is just that, garbage. Anyone who claims Joe Rogan is racist has probably not listened to all that much Joe Rogan.
I have listened to Joe Rogan quite a bit, and there's plenty to complain about, if you're looking to complain. However, racism is definitely not something I associate with Joe Rogan.
So much labeling these days. So much labeling.....
Very disappointed that Neil Young admits he never listened to Joe Rogan nor the particular podcast mentioned by the 80 doctors and a few scientists. After all, if he took one of the mRNA vaccines I would think he'd want to hear about it from someone who has nine patents for it. Two years ago I would have thought Neil Young would have been the last artist to take this stance rather than leading the charge. Malone is such an expert on mRNA that Linkdn couldn't find anyone to match him when he was restricted there.
Hope Neil doesn't go after President Jimmy Carter next giving Ivermectin under trade name, Mectizan, to people of color for river blindness and various other health issues in Africa. Has the political FDA propaganda against the use of the horse dewormer impacted Carter's work there in a negative way? His homepage has the medicine used as Mectizan. Have people gone blind in Africa over this political "disinformation" stance the FDA and CSNY has taken more recently?
https://www.cartercenter.org/health/river_blindness/index.html
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17877878/
https://www.1mg.com/medicines/mectin-26911
I,m the "victim" of a big pharma drug called debendox, like thalidomide, but for women with morning sickness. They all got paid off outta court. I got fuck all cos I was out with their jurisdictions. Make yer own mind up when it all comes down.....
Richie, I am not talking about Joe Rogan specifically. I am discussing the culture, not individuals.
@dionys
I have noticed from your previous post or two that you are completely unable to decipher any information or facts that go against your beliefs, and are not interested in doing any fact-checks, so I won't even pretend that anything I write or prove will make a difference.
But, there are probably others following this, so....
The fact that Ivermectin has been widely used in treating people for decades is a fact you could have checked easily, and so could have miss Gay. Jim just kindly posted a link related to this, so I won't bother.
On an episode of Joe Rogan Experience, Rogan presented the meds he had been subscribed to CNN's medical expert Sonjay Gupta, who was forced to admit that CNN (and other news outlets) should not have said/lied that Rogan had taken a horse dewormer.
Here's a clip showing the essential part of the conversation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rJIUv5MoTU
SO, MISS GAY LIED/IS WRONG ABOUT THE FACT ROGAN HAD TAKEN HORSE DEWORMER.
The horse dewormer version is different from the one prescribed to people.
Ivermectin (Stromectol etc) is recognized for it's anti-inflammatory qualities, which is probably why it's being prescribed by some doctors for potentially serious infections, covid included. It is a generic drug that's patent has run out in 90's, so don't expect it to become popular regardless of what other benefits it may turn out to have.
Also, your assumption that a person with Rogan's wealth and obsession on health (no pot and cigar jokes here, please) would go to see a horse doctor is a perfect indication of your single-minded agenda and blind belief of the smear campaign.
Here's one link to the news about the '270 doctors' that Neil and miss Gay bought into. I don't know if there are other 'lists' of actual doctors, but Neil at least referenced the one with 270 names, so I am assuming it is this. Oh, and there are some students and pocasters among the 270 as well. Had forgotten about those. And people bought into this. So funny. No?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10418589/Most-270-signed-anti-Joe-Rogan-letter-demanding-Spotify-action-not-actually-doctors.html
sidelining....right. (I laughed really hard at that..too)
SO MISS GAY LIED AND WAS WRONG ABOUT "270 DOCTORS" SIGNING A PETITION.
Only 87 were actual doctors.
Once again, the racism claim is so stupid I don't even know where to begin with that. What do you want me to say as a proof? That some of Rogan's best friends are black? Hahah. It is certainly true, but a bit too cliched maybe.
I would like to think that if someone is accused of racism, THE ACCUSERS are the ones who should prove it, or at least say what kind of behaviour they are referenceing.
So far, there's been nothing. Why? Because in the five years I've watched the show, I have never heard even a single CLAIM about racism until this hilarious smear campaign with all this disinformation started.
Of course that might be partly because IT IS A PODCAST, NOT A NEWS SHOW, so no-one used to take it too seriously until all the muppets were told to do so. No-one cared when in 2020 Alex Jones or Bob Lazar were guests with all their wild conspiracies. Jones-episode has 20 million views on Youtube alone. Bloody entertaining and bat-shit crazy it was too. Or when Jesse Ventura ranted an hour about 9/11 being an inside job etc. etc. But when there's two doctors with remarkable credentials that don't follow the government narrative, it suddenly becomes a problem. The point being, if you take a podcast hosted by a comedian this seriously, it sure is a dangerous world out there for you, since you are clearly incapable of making any kind of rational decisions.
...and on a lighter note. This cracked me up on another forum. Probably the only one there who got it.
"neil young is complaining about spreading misinformation
hernan cortes has joined the chat"
I posted the lengthy 'anonymous' rant above but forgot to sign it. Just saying before anyone (again) comes crying about not standing behind your words, like it was any different from using a handle.
I also need to point out again that I am no anti-vaxxer. I've had my jabs since I'm in the worst possible high-risk group. And I had the virus in July and the jabs maybe stopped me from getting hospitalized or even worse. But when it comes to vaxxing my perfectly healthy 14-year old daughter with ANYTHING still experimental, it's a different case. Of course there was a lot of pressure to jab her to protect ME, mainly, since the serious cases of people under 30 are extremely rare in Finland. We've had around 2000 covid related deaths with an average age very close to the general life expectancy. But about a year ago, I was lucky enough to hear some cardiologists and scientists claim the vax could not even theoretically keep you from getting infected and spreading the virus, so I figured it not worth the risk for her. Of course, these published scientists were soon silenced for 'spreading harmful misinformation'. Maybe I was just lucky to pick out the 'misinformation' that turned out to be perfectly accurate...once again. It is not a choice I've made. Life would certainly be much easier and less stressful if it was possible just to believe the mainstream narrative and hop merrily on.
Art
I thought ARTISTS were for freedom of speech! How ironic and sad. It's like an athlete being against fitness! I WAS a big Neil Young and Joni Mitchell fan but am now rebutting them by saying, it's FREE SPEECH or Neil Young and Joni Mitchell, NOT BOTH. I'm out.
and while I'm deep in at this for once..a few more things.
I don't care for Spotify. I only listen to Rogan there. The audio quality is shit for music. Neil got that one absolutely right. I actually hope Spotify caves in, buys out Rogan's 100 million contract and he can take his podcast and audience elsewhere. Set up his own streaming service if need be. His profile has gone up immensely this past week. Mainstream coverage and all.
I bet the subscriptions for Neil's archives have also gotten significant boost from all this. So it's all good in the end. Even CSN can now feel relevant for a day. I guess anything really is possible.
I don't mind the criticism of Rogan either. What does bother me though is whenever criticism on ANYONE isn't based on facts, and people get righteous talking about something they know absolutely nothing about. Just basing their opinions on lies that are being spread by people, who also know nothing about the subject, and not even bothering to find out what the truth is for themselves.
Another thing that does bother me is hypocrisy. And I may be alone here, but selling your song catalog to a company largely responsible for burning down the Amazon rain forest, while being all out environmentalist on the very shallow surface, is the worst kind of hypocrisy I can think of. Of course, I would have taken the millions too in that position, but at least I don't sign my posts with "love earth".
love earth (oops)
Art
Social media has become the 21st century version of the phone game. A person stubs their toe and calls in sick to work, and by the end of the day everyone thinks they’ve had a sex change operation. This whole thing is played out as far as I’m concerned. Let’s get back to the music.
Peace 🙏
I have been playing "Country Girl" over and over today.
Maybe you should focus more on individuals than on culture. I keep hearing about our culture being racist, but truthfully haven't met many racist individuals in my 50 years on this planet.
Culture isn't your friend, culture is your jailer. I heard somebody wise say that a few days ago, makes sense to me.
Music doesn’t work on a strictly individual level. It is shared. Much like some of us come to TW for a sense of community and conversation, listening to music (or engaging with any art) has to do with how one person’s feelings and experiences resonate with each other, about feeling less alone or isolated in the world/cosmos. Expression is communication. It doesn’t work if there isn’t someone to be expressed to, and someone doing the expressing, at any given point.
So I don’t think simply focusing on individuals is the answer. Not for me. Although it is important to acknowledge and honor the fact that humans are not monolithic. Richie, if you haven’t encountered racism or other forms of systematic discrimination, you are lucky. And most of us are lucky in some ways, unlucky in other ways. At the same time, just because one hasn’t personally dealt with something, doesn’t mean it isn’t out there. Discrimination is out there—and it affects the opportunities of individuals.
Some folks choose to be more engaged or invested in pursuing these problems than others. I think there is something to be said for respecting another person’s passion, even if you don’t share it. And I think most people, if they were in NY, CSN, or Joni Mitchell’s position as creators, would want a similar level of control over how their work is distributed. Hence my frustration with some responses that strike me as, frankly, hypocritical.
So I endorse the drift of Abner’s comments. Whether or not anyone else chooses to take up Abner’s premises is a matter of choice. However, I do not think these larger points are so easily dismissed.
Dan, to get back to the music, I revisited Storytone today. The orchestra/big band production, which I never had a problem with. The songs and album hold together, maybe even better than I remembered. Recording quality is excellent, and there is something poignant about Neil’s aged, somewhat fragile voice set against these sweeping orchestral arrangements. The isolated vocals standing right out in the middle of a massive soundscape has quite an effect.
I could be off, but I suspect most of these songs were developed with the big sound in mind, with the result being that the arrangements, while fairly maximalist, enhance the emotion of the songs more often than they overshadow it. I’ve always really liked ‘Plastic Flowers’ and ‘Tumbleweed’. The feeling behind them is incredible. When I Watch you Sleeping’ might be the only song that doesn’t particularly benefit from this form, simply because it’s one of those intimate, shuffling ballads that play so well with just Neil, guitar, and harmonica, Silver & Gold style. But I’d say that’s about the only case of the strings feeling afterthought-ish rather than integral. Even then, it’s done with a lighter touch than I had remembered.
Like many of Neil’s albums, I can’t overstate how much emotion this one has. Many people seem to have trouble looking past their own feelings about NY’s life changes captured related to the album, but it’s too bad for something this open and touching to be dismissed as overwrought lovesick trifles.
One final thought: on Jon Stewart’s suggestion for NY to “engage” rather than delete... he is and he does. If you listen to NY’s music, you know he is and and has been deeply, intuitively engaged on crucial issues. I understand Steward in principle, but any suggestion that music or art don’t count as engagement is, if not insulting, inattentive to context. NY is not a talking head... thank god... or even a comedian with topical material.
Along with whatever he puts out through NYA, I would say Neil’s music is his engagement. And there are plenty of places to get it. Last time I went on iTunes, I saw a big “Neil lives here” banner ad with a photo of NY. It’s a funny world, but the point is, you can get all the Neil you could possibly want if you’re paying attention. And anyone, like Stewart, who has been around in US media for a while, should damn well know better than to imply that Neil Young, of all people, comes up short in the area of civic engagement.
Remember the Freedom of Speech tour? Go watch the CSNY “Deja Vu” concert movie from 2006 and then we can talk about how Neil Young not engaging.
“Don’t forget love.”
So you encounter a lot of racism in your personal life? Any specific examples, maybe it would be good to let it out.
I never said racism doesn't exist, and man, I'd wish you'd stop putting words in my mouth. I say something pretty basic here, and you seem to like to twist it into something that either fits or disputes your narrative.
I like what one guy said here about the idea that those that spout racism on any topic should maybe provide some specific examples of such things. Any -ism that one is accused of should be provided with a real sample. It's very easy just to throw out words to insult those that think a different way than you do, yet I'm not really sure how that solves anything.
And I will always judge the individual before I judge the culture that person comes from. MLK said that a man shouldn't be judged on the color of his skin, but on the actions of his life. Very wise words.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Good post Art. For what it matters, you are not alone in this. Robi.
As I have been personally addressed, I will respond and apologize to not sticking with the music one last time (for the time being). Please skip this if you are not interested.
Any tenth-grader having understood exponential growth does understand that one cannot combat a pandemic by applying a medication post-infection. Any tenth-grader having mastered his or her biology class understands that comparing a virus disease with a filaria induced illness (river blindness)is problematic. And many tenth graders would ask why is it that Merck and the Carter Center while being commended for their humanitarian exercise use third world countries as a testing ground for their medical material. In Germany Ivermectin is considered to be horse medicine,yes there is some off-label use, which is permitted, always bearing the possibility for a physician to loose his or her approbation or be sued for damages.
After 33 years of human rights work on local, European and international level, among other institutions also for NGO's adrdressing the UN Human Rights Committee and the UN Human rights Council with regards to indigenous peoples in both the US and Canada I've come to the conclusion that any person denying racisms either did not pay attention or pursues a certain suspicious interest. For further explanation see Ian's comments above.
This whole thing was sidelined because it did not address the main point expressed by Roxanne Gay: responsible use of free speech and the accountability of companies providing a platform and of those who associate with this platform or the content provider. This is what Neil Young and his colleagues wanted to point out. So was I. And now back to the music.
@ Dionys: I meant no disrespect to you, Ian, Abner, and others who have made some excellent points here, and I am in full agreement with you. It just seems that we have come to a point in the discussion where everyone seems to have made up their minds. I don’t have a solution, and there seems to be some here who just don’t want one. Your points are sound and I appreciate your frustration. As the old saying goes…. you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
Peace 🙏
# Dan
No, I did not perceive any disrespect, on the contrary. I see how several commenters have been trying "to bring her back on track" i.e. re-focus on the music of Neil Young and I want to support this, among other things because there I might find some common ground with the guy from Santa Cruz who definitely enjoys Neil Young's music at least as much as I do. Also my initial post on this thread was not intended to stirr up another broad discussion, basically I just mentioned it because I just thought that people like you might be interested in this Viewpoint item. Peacelover Doc was interested in reading it and so were others.
Hell, you Americans became that complicated in the last few years, that used to be different.
It is estimated that seventy Joe Rogan podcasts were deleted this week so Neil Young sort of won his anti-freedom of speech campaign on that front. The Dr. Robert Malone podcast remains online, however, so not a total victory. It was done quietly unlike the way Cortez did it in the public square where people watched the ancient Mayan "history of the world" codices being burned in front of their eyes. Only four codices survived although secretly more could be a prized part of a private collection or the Vatican library.
One must remember that the New World in their history had four previous civilizations but the more recent Old World only had one that started in full bloom six thousand years ago near Iraq. Isn't it curious that the New World had a history that went back 13,000 years or more and the Old World went back 6,000 years? That is science!
With freedom of speech lost, tyranny is usually not far behind. Across society you have self censorship in fear of that tyranny knocking on your door day and night. People point to science now but doctors must self censor in the public square now or they are brought before the A.M.A. and might have their license revoked. Off label use of medicine used to be common but bet it isn't so much anymore. All sorts of examples of tyranny in the historical records even Christian against Christian in the 1200s when the troubadour movement began in the Languedoc region of France. The ugly (false) and the good (true) is part and parcel to freedom of speech and always has been. Truth doesn't need a defense in a society that has freedom of speech as it can be sorted out in the public square.
Oops, some of that misinformation in the "open letter" might be last weeks news...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/myocarditis-and-pericarditis-after-covid-19-vaccination/myocarditis-and-pericarditis-after-covid-19-vaccination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
Lots of research now is coming out that Covid 19 is to Vitamin D what Scurvy is to Vitamin C. This is especially true for people of color and people trapped inside away from the sun in a lockdown. Hope everyone here reading this knows their ng/ml from a blood test for Vitamin D. Below 25 to 30 is very common for any age group in the ICU for Covid 19. Pub Med is trying to piece it all together now.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32474141/
Dan, I really appreciate where you are on this. I did try to get that ball rolling with some thoughts on Storytone up above, hoping to at least keep the music alive in the meantime.
Dionys—I’m grateful for your input as one who clearly has background and has been involved in humanitarian work for a while. Generally, NY seems to attract an audience who resonate with the “we are the people known as earth!” affirmative spirit.
Richie, Did not mean to put words in your mouth, but I don’t know that anyone here was talking about being personally impacted by racism. Possibly I “over read” your comments. Still, it’s frustrating to make an effort to engage in good faith and then feel like I’m being snapped back at. The feeling that no matter what I ever say, it will be heard as glib condescension, or worse, is dispiriting.
I think how I think. I read what I read. I talk how I talk. Can only change so much. It’s not meant to be aggressive or dismissive.
—
“Don’t forget love.”
As an aside, I suggest the term “group think” could be reevaluated. It’s clear to me we need a healthy, livable balance between group and individual thinking. Multiple heads are better than one *because* we’re not all the same.
Dan, you have never offended me and never will- I can tell. Your heart and mind are in good places.
The notion that what is going on here is "group think" as opposed to individual insight is quite literally beyond laughable. Are we supposed to actually believe that the right wing stampede to ban books, redistrict and infringe voting rights (please read North Carolina recent decision) and yell "the big lie" is somehow "free-thinking"?
The demand to produce examples of racism is a gross insult to those who have suffered the history and current reality of racism. If, however, we need sink to this level, I can give a long list of specific example from my own experience, as a white man, of others using racial slurs and in all kind of contexts. But this does not matter nearly as much as soul crushing ecological racism that Neil Young barely touched on in some of his angry songs. For those of you unconvinced or in disbelief, please pick up a book on "redlining" in 20th century United States: a primer on the tip of an iceberg.
All good thinking is conditioned on the thoughts of others and at deep levels. In fact, the very condition of communication and meaning is dependent on a human community. This idea, in a raw form, goes back to Aristotle, but is currently demonstrated in cognitive science, philosophy and language studies. (Roots here in Wittgenstein.) If you think this is egg-head, pretentious and so forth, take a look at any study on social deprivation of children and the consequences for cognition, emotion, and agency.
Dan, the problem with letting this go is that the truth matters too much. There is too much at stake. I was told by a number of people around here to give up resisting the right wing stampede to book banning in schools (those filthy and obscene books about Gays and Lesbians!!). I won't give up because I can see the ugliness of bigotry and prejudice disguised as parental concern. Is it all intentional? No, it is part of our ongoing human ecology.
I have students right now who have been harmed by bigotry and prejudice. Dionys and myself are educators, we have both been in front of young people and with young people day after day in the midst of this pandemic. Anti-vaccine and anti-mask is, to me, a direct threat to my well-being as a 61 year old professor and educator.
Since my last post here I have been overwhelmed with the responses. Once again, as usual…. The cream has risen to the top. Thanks to all those who stand up for freedom and equality for all.
Peace 🙏
even a Finnish 2nd grader knows that when you have no real come back,
the convenient thing to do is change the subject and make claims that are really obvious facts, yet completely unrelated to what has been previously discussed.
Of course, this type of behavior has become very common these days, especially within the age groups that really should have much better communication skills. Add a good level of education to that, with an obvious superiority complex showcased by constant belittling of those presenting a different argument, and you'd be better off having discussions with your bedroom wall than these people.
Well, I'm off now. Like someone stated it's a subject everyone obviously has their minds made up, depending solely on the source of information one chooses to trust. I felt the need to drop in and have some good fun, since I figured this to be a place where the discussion on this whole Rogan-debacle would be unfairly lopsided, since everyone here listens to Neil, but not that many know at all what the JRE podcast is all about. Just like Neil.
Of course, it was all pointless and useless. Regardless, I'm pleased to have seen plenty of sane heads still in the Neil-community that aren't part of this herd mentality and mass psychosis (yes, that too was a real and respected theory by Belgian Mattias Delmet, concerning Nazi-Germany and Stalin's Russia, until Dr. Malone brought it up and the smear campaign started. Delmet is apparently really pissed at Malone for that).
"Take my advice, don't listen to me"
thanks to anyone who listened,
Art
It seems to me that your points have been directly addressed.
Oops! It looks like Joe Rogan now had bigger problems on his hands.
He said the N-word over 20 times on his podcast.
Now let the Spotify boycott really begin!
That Neil Young, on the right side of History once again.
And, it was not necessary to listen to ANY Joe Rogan podcast chatter to determine his rightful derision.
Your brother in Seattle
Didn't Neil once call a certain section of our population "faggots" once before?
Sounds like someone may need to be "canceled"......
@Richie Cruz
yes, he did say that. There are a few quite popular You Tube-videos now calling Neil out on it, and other things he's done or said. Comedian Jimmy Dore did several pretty entertaining hit pieces. Neil also claimed 'faggots' were the cause of AIDS and was worried about these people handling his groceries at the local market. This was in the mid eighties. Sure sounds like the country music phase. I don't know. I was 11 at the time and knew better. He's just not flawless and does get thing terribly wrong from time to time, like all of us.
All the Rogan clips in that collage are also from many years ago, and out of context, although it sure sounds horrible regardless of context. I am surprised whoever saw fit to go through 12 years of his podcasts with thousands of hours of often stoned or drunk conversations, didn't find more material to edit together.
At the end of the day, I think we can all be glad that no-one out there is interested in making a 45 second "Worst Of"-compilation based on the stupidest things we have said....without any reference to the intention of it, whether it be sarcastic, joking, or just being thoughtless and stupid.
Weirdly enough, NY’s deeply unfortunate, paranoiac, prejudiced comments revive the question of (re)assessing the Geffin years, since NY’s hardcore country trip was smack-dab in the heart of that period. On one hand, the ugly words are a sobering reminder of how far our culture has come on certain matters in a relatively short time. Such paranoia and vitriol was not uncommon in the period, even from relatively well-educated, level-headed people.
Let alone NY, who would say something provocative on impulse. Or because he wanted to mess with the interviewer, or shock people, or vent aimless rage. Or because he was playing up some kind of image (like Bowie getting lost in his personas). I986 was the year the US Supreme Court ruled there was no constitutional protection for gay men to have consenting sex in their private homes (Bowers v. Hardwicke). None of which is an excuse. Those comments, along with the rampant homophobia of that era, is not for me to excuse or forgive. However, it does suggest context, in which light I see NY’s foul words as symptomatic, not causes, of a much larger systemic problem. Let’s tell the truth: Such attitudes were commonplace. And we’re still undoing that damage.
Attitude, damage, lashing out—all characterize this period of NY’s history, if even half of what we read is accurate. In this sense, Landing on Water is the quintessential Geffin album. Right down to the claustrophobic, artificially shiny soundscape and boxy drums pounding your eardrums to death. Violent Side, Pressure, I Got a problem, Hippie Dream, and Touch the Night wash the listener with visceral frustration and confusion. No more Shocking Pinks or International Harvesters. This is raw and—I suspect—the most truthful of the Geffin albums for expressing how the artist may have felt at the time.
LOW is also, perhaps, a crucial first step in the journey that eventually leads to Freedom and Ragged Glory via the Bluenotes. For a long time, Trans and LOW, in that order, have been my go-to Geffin albums. I could write more on LOW, but it feels so tangential. Along with about 2/3 of Trans, the album seems to capture an emotional zeitgeist. Dystopian snapshots. The sound is compressed, depressed, oppressed. Listening to LOW as anything other than total immersion in pain and paranoia is, in my opinion, missing the whole point.
And that’s my clearest impression of NY’s Geffin Years.
A final point: my point isn’t, never has been about Rogan. Just that I don’t see scandal in NY, or anyone, choosing to leave a platform, for any reason—full stop. I’m not a Rogan listener; what I have heard, I don’t relate to. Most talk radio, even delivered on the web, does nothing for me. But my interest isn’t in “cancelling” anyone.
Ian, I think it would be very hard to produce a better understanding of Landing on Water. I think what you say here is brilliant and it is most interesting that your comments concerning the music are strongly connected to the social world at the time.
I recall, as a graduate student, being really frustrated over the HIV and AIDS "misinformation." We did not call it that at the time, more like "bullshit." People were afraid to use the public restroom for fear of "catching AIDS." I could fill a page with comparisons to our present struggle but not now.
There are those who struggle deeply with themselves and then there are those who never quite bother. Honestly, I am fearful of the near future. I believe US culture has slipped back into a state that lacks the conditions for self-struggle.
Thanks, Abner. Trying to fit the music and the outside problems into post tends to create overflow.
In short, I think we're living through a reactionary time right now. Living with war in our hearts every day, so to speak. How long will it last, and what will things look like later? Impossible to know.
Yesterday, listened to Sleeps with Angels for the first time in a while. Blue Eden. Maybe that explains the mindset of my comments on LOW?. I painted the '80s albums with a broad brush. I have a hard time with NY's country music phase... for a couple reasons... but the International Harvesters do deserve a more nuanced take at some point.
"Don't forget love."
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