So What's Really on Archives Vol. #1?
Ark of the CovenantPlenty of discussion on last week’s Neil Young blog, and also, more fractiously, over at Thrasher’s Wheat, about the value/usefulness/etc of “Archives”. A lot of the heat seems to revolve around definitions of “unreleased songs”, and whether that means unreleased recordings of known songs, or songs that have never been previously released in any form.The debate reaches a highpoint of sorts on Thrasher’s Wheat when one persistent critic suggests, “if you read the Uncut Blog, the author states that there is only one notable unreleased song worth listening to – ‘Everybody's Alone’. Neil Young has committed the greatest fraud in the history of music.” Blimey. That made me re-read my original post, and check that I called ‘Everybody’s Alone’ “the one really essential unheard song on the whole set” – not the only one worth listening to, quite. It strikes me, thinking about this some more, that the whole debate calls into question the main point of boxsets like this. Should we really expect most unreleased material to stand comparison with the best work of, in this case, Neil Young? Or should we see them more as historical research tools, where the unreleased songs are most more interesting as contextualising evidence rather than stand-alone tracks?So, John, back over to you and our intrepid readers and commenters. And will we see a return of the Johnny Rocket troll? More on The Neil Young Archives Roundup - Lucy, Charlie & the Football.
by thrasher@PermaLink: 5/13/2009 07:59:00 AM
48 comments
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48 Comments:
You know, at this point, I could almost care less what's on it.
I've got it on pre-order and will be happy to have upgrades of my vinyls & boots.
I'll be dead when Vol's 3,4,5, 6 come out. Hope to live to see Vol 2 at least.
Thrasher, you really have some ungrateful bastard readers and youshould just deep 6'em
Lookout Jim
Hey, i'm sick of arguing about the archives, too. I've made my points, valid or not, and never meant to rile the 96% Club.
At this point, i'm quite certain Archives 1 will be a worthwhile MULTIMEDIA endeavor. My lone complaint is that more unreleased material was not included.
It's out there, but it's also Neil's right to chose to offer it to us.
It's also my right to complain about the contents and the cost.
Cough Up The Bucks!
Johnny Rocket!
If I'm not mistakin' I DID read somewhere Neil saying that a good bulk of unreleased audio and video will be in Archives vol.2.If you don't like the looks of what's included in vol.1 don't buy it and wait for vol.2.Just say no to the crybaby mentality.
The Mugwump
One word for those complainers: BD-Live.
The preview disc already gave us an extra unreleased song in the basement version of "I Wonder".
This is gonna be awesome....and I bet Everybody's Alone will be a BD-Live download.
I agree. I think that's the problem. A lot of folks are looking at this from a very conventional perspective of the way they've always purchased music.
You bought an album and what you had was what you had in your hands.
With BD, NYA is a living & breathing document being continuosly updated. Even before NYA is issued we're hearing it's already updating itself??
I mean how cool is that?
Who knows? Maybe 5 years from now we'll still be getting BD updates?
Nobody knows the future but BD is something as music consumers we've never experienced before.
Maybe JohnieR is hung up because he wants a CD box? Or crap mp3s?
I just can't wait for Thrasher's Wheat Archives Vol.1 to come out!!!
Here's a few unreleased tracks that are comin' out:
Tell Me Whine
Expecting to Whine
Comes A Whine
Whinin' in the Free World
Words(Between the Whines of Age)
Cortez the Whiner
I've Been Whining for You
Cheers, 96%
The archives are not just an important series of boxsets to be used as a research tool, but are revolutionary from a marketing perspective. By this, I'm referring to the brilliant decision to establish blu-ray as the forefront medium for experiencing what is undoubtedly going to be a fascinating chronicle. Forget the naysayers; the archives are an essential venture in artistic credibility, a respect for the fans and a move towards the further development of technology. It is these kind of works that guarantee recognition in the decades to come.
In a word, NYA is revolutionary.
Only those afraid of the status quo fear NYA.
Maybe Johnnie boy is an 8 track dealer?
Che G.
Ya know...because so many collected stuff that was stolen/bootlegged/or generally just ripped off in some regard you feel Neil is ripping you off by releasing that stuff officially?
After being a Neil Fan (I even have a Neil Tribute Band) for over 30 Years I have enjoyed most everything Neil has given us...like anything there are some that don't turn my crank but is it really possible to do that with any Artist? I am hearing tunes, seeing pictures, reading reviews and learning info on Neil that I have never before seen of heard with just the Preview Disc...and loving it!! Remember who spoiled the Archives for ya........you did!
LIVE RUST
"Tell Me Whine
Expecting to Whine
Comes A Whine
Whinin' in the Free World
Words(Between the Whines of Age)
Cortez the Whiner
I've Been Whining for You"
That's classic!
I agree with Anon @ 2:24pm. This Archives set isn't designed for bootleggers and rip offs who have in their possession some crap versions of some tracks of some old cassette.
It is an audio biography for the masses and tells a deep, detailed story of an artist thru a revolutionary new format that isn't finite in content.
99% of the people who buy this set are going to be hearing a lot of tunes for the first time ever.
As far as you bootlegger whiners who have some misplaced sense of entitlement go...you are exactly the kind of consumer who deserves to get short changed.
hey now. i treasure those crap versions of tracks from some old cassette. : ) and i'm not sure anyone deserves to get short changed (?), BUT. that being said, i will be happy happy happy to have my new lovely versions of those crap versions, yes i will. i am SO EXCITED about THE ARCHIVES (insert chorus of angels), and cannot wait to have them in my hand (even though it will mean i will never do anything but sit in front of my television and bluray player ever again). i have the preview disc, and it made my heart skip a beat to hold it in my hand for the first time, let alone PLAY IT, omg. the first thing i did when i watched the preview disc was to open the filing cabinet (fun! and very cool), and check out a song i had never heard (didn't even have a crap version from some old cassette). "i'll love you forever," and it promptly had me choked up. a little. or maybe a lot. i won't bore you with the (sniffsniff) details, but the whole thing just choked me up. i don't know why, really. i don't know if it was because it was my first access to THE ARCHIVES, or if it was hearing his 19 year old self, or if it was just nostalgia for a time and a place i wasn't even at . . . Or if it was that looking at the beginning necessarily makes you think about the end, and I can't even go there. I don't want NY's career to ever ever end, I want it to go on forever, I just want him to keep writing songs and making new archives, forever and ever ... : ) ... But srsly, I don't know how I am going to get through the real deal, since the preview disc has me at the edge of my feather. lovekaren
At 5/13/2009 09:41:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...
You know, at this point, I could almost care less what's on it.This makes no sense. Surely you meaant to write "I couldn't care less"
Thanks for the update Thrasher. I honestly don't unserstand why these 4% fools are complaining. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T BUY IT!!!!
The set looks amazing, why can't people grasp that this will revolutionise music?
I wonder if there's lyrics and sheet music for some unrecorded or lost stuff on the Archives. Nobody mentioned there was anything on the preview disc.
Anonymous, ...I don't want to be a(Eric) Burden.... but what about...
Spill the whine.and take that Neil!
"Thanks for the update Thrasher. I honestly don't unserstand why these 4% fools are complaining. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T BUY IT!!!!"Thanks for the update Thrasher. I honestly don't unserstand why these 96% fools are complaining. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T READ IT!!!!
"Forget the naysayers; the archives are an essential venture in artistic credibility, a respect for the fans"Nice words Burnzy. 'Artistic credibility', 'respect for the fans' huh? It's just a pity that the Archives includes a live DVD that is claimed to be from Massey Hall, but is from another concert altogether with the audio dubbed over the top. Substitute the word 'deception' for 'credibility' and you've just about got it right.
Neil is selling us Massey Hall and Filmore East AGAIN!
Cough Up the Bucks!!
Johnny Rocket!
Naysayer,
Over the past 2 years, you've brought up the MH footage business, oh maybe, a dozen times or so.
Don't you think you've made your point?
Why do you bang on this relentlessly?
Suppose your point is valid?
Does somehow one oversight or creative license somehow obliterate a career of 40 years?
As they say, show me your perfect, unblemished career, and you can be righteous.
In the meantime, if you ever bring this up again, it will be deleted pronto.
Peace & love,
t
"Neil is selling us Massey Hall and Filmore East AGAIN!
Cough Up the Bucks!!
Johnny Rocket!"
^ The above is ludicrous. Both albums were always intended as archives tasters and should be essential elements of the archives, even if they have been previously released. It's not like you're even being charged much for them; if you're "so outraged" by this, simply sell your old copies.
I want to say a few things about the archives, but I think it's probably a good idea to wait until I actually hear them. But this business of "reselling" Massey Hall and Fillmore East has really bothered me.... mostly because it just doesn't make sense. Who else has ever done this - released stand-alone albums and then included the exact albums in a box-set?
At first I thought of it in terms of greed, but that argument, I've decided, really doesn't hold up. Neil could have included two different concerts in the box set and still charged the same amount, or he could have eliminated these albums and made the box set smaller and still charged the same amount. I doubt that it would have made any difference in the final sales figures one way or the other.
The argument about using the live albums as a teaser makes even less sense. Maybe it would have for Fillmore, if the complete concert had then been included in the box, but it isn't. A true teaser would have been a lower priced sampler of material from the entire box, not full-priced complete concerts.
As obsessively as this archive has been compiled, there is simply no logical reason for this decision, unless there's some kind of behind the scenes record company scenario where Neil had to agree to release standalone historic recordings as a condition of being allowed to have complete creative control over the archive. If that's the case, or if it's something else that's essentially business related, then, OK, what the hell. As many here have said - if you don't like it, don't buy it.
And finally, is there anything more pathetically humorous than "fans" who say they've spent many thousands of dollars on vinyl, cds, dvds, bootlegs, and concerts suddenly getting all twisted in the genital area over spending a couple hundred bucks on the Holy Grail. I wasn't all that pleased to see Thrasher relinking to the "Fuck You" thread, but, in this case, it seemed like the most appropriate response.
And kudos, T, on the decision to accept ads. I hope you make a billion dollars.
in reply to the Fillmore and Massey questions:
Every disc in this set is available in 3 formats individually. No one is making anyone buy anything again. Mix and match, pick and choose...build your own set the way YOU want it.
If complaining is realy more your thing, have at it. You may not be looking for answers, just problems.
Slights and injustices are everywhere in the world, if that is what you focus your energies on.
I believe that Neil has been EXTREMELY accommodating and sensitive to buyers needs and desires in the manner this collection is being offered.
Enjoy Volume 1. There are LOTS of fun surprises in the pipeline for BD-Live.
-Archives Guy
My guess is independent Neil got bent over by the "Record Company Man" in regards to Massey Hall and Fillmore.
He was likely forced to include them in the Archives.
As we all know the Record biz is in complete tatters.....and you see plenty of artists repackaging the same ol' shit, and just charging away.
They are doing whatever possible to make money, and if that means making people pay twice they will do it.
When those discs were released, we were NEVER told they were so-called "Teaser" discs, to be included in the Archives. We only learned this after the fact, when the Archives track listing became visible.
It's shady, it's unethical....but it's also reality in the times in which we live.
I love Neil, i love his music....but he monehy-grubs his fans just like the rest of them.
he's no longer unique in this regard.
Cough up the Buck$!
Johnny Rocket!
"In reply to the Fillmore and Massey questions:
Every disc in this set is available in 3 formats individually. No one is making anyone buy anything again. Mix and match, pick and choose...build your own set the way YOU want it."
That's a reasoned response, if not exactly reasonable, and I would describe the reaction as more puzzled than complaining. Being able to mix and match does allow a buyer to get most of the content without having to repurchase two previously released live albums, but, after all these years, I think most of us want the whole package, with all the content, and we're simply curious about the reasoning behind the whole Massey/Fillmore thing. So, Mr. Archives Guy, and, if I haven't said so before, I am deeply appreciative of the time you've spent on the project and on your detailed postings here, would, or could you please address the central issue? What was the reasoning behind the decision to release the two live albums and then include them in the archive, as opposed to including different concerts in the archive or simply making the archive smaller?
Sincere thanks
Very salient question, Pinto.
Let's hope AG provides a response.
AG - i, too, am appreciative of the time you've spent here, answering many questions, including mine.
you are correct - fans have the option to purchase in many different varieties.
can you answer this question - should i mix and match, purchasing everything individually, with the exception of Massey and Fillmore (two discs that i already own and paid good money for), would i also have the option to get the MP3 downloads as part of my purchase?
or would i have to pay for that separately?
also, i havent run the numbers, but my guess is, if i buy everything individually (including book), i'm paying more than $300 bucks...and if i buy individually, i dont get the box...
Dear Archives Guy,
Welcome back.Question.Hope you can divulge the answer.Will there be some bonus material included within Blu-ray and DVD editions of Filmore and Massey?Hope so.And when can we expect BD eds. of FITR?Hope SOON!!
The Mugwump
Crosby/Neil told us "Everybody's sayin' that music's for free"
If you already have MH and Filmore when you buy the box...give 'em to somebody! I mean really, spread the frickin' news! What's $25+- bucks among friends?
buy it twice, maybe 3 times!
Cough up the Buck$!
Well, I think back to the LP's, the casettes and the 8 tracks I had in the 70's. Several duplicates. So. if you have the cd now, getting the BD is the same issue.
"Cry, cry, cry"
The 96% Club, Alive and Well, sucking up to Master Neil!
Reminder - Only Eric Clapton is God - not Neil!
Cough up the Buck$!
Johnny Rocket!
Didn't realize pointing out the obvious was sucking up to the master! Well, Neil ain't my master Johnny. Not sure I'll even by the BD box. Don't have a player, or the greatest desire for it either. Play my own shit mostly. That's play, not listen.
There's an old saying
'Who cares about apathy'
not me.
be careful with you r 'gods' too.
Nice work SONY.
At 5/14/2009 11:37:00 AM, JRocket said...
"He was likely forced to include them (fillmore and massey) in the Archives. "
I'm thinking the opposite happened. I bet Neil’s vision has been to include them in the Archives since the beginning and was encouraged to release FE and MH early to appease people waiting for the Archives.
I'm a big believer that the Performance Series material should not be included in the Archives proper, just because it makes things really complicated when it comes to track lists. I think it better to release some unique live songs in the Archives and then entire, shows (please - an entire show someday) as Performance Series releases only. Otherwise you end up making tough decisions trying to limit how many versions of a song are included in the Archives. For example, why leave Cowgirl and Down By The River off of the Riverboat? Those are historically interesting because they are the first performances ever and they were acoustic, but were likely left off because the album and Fillmore East versions were already included in the Archives. Putting the Riverboat out separately would allow those songs to be included in a Performance Series release. And - leaving Fillmore East out of the Archives leaves room for other interesting things – like maybe alternate studio cuts of early Crazy Horse (don’t know if they exist).
Hopefully people realize the concept has changed somewhat over the years. The first time he mentioned the Performance Series he said 'they may be sold seperately. But there would be an empty slot in the archives.' That obviously changed when the format changed to Blue Ray.
Syscrusher
Also, given that there are 3 versions of I Wonder and 3 of Clancy, it seems like Neil's completist mentality. I really think that when all is said and done he'll give us the COMPLETE picture.
Syscrusher
hello, i am a neil fan and i have a question about my recently received preview disk for the archives purchased. i am trying to use my recently purchased sony vaio with bluray disk to play it. the laptop starts a program Intervideo WinDVD with BD and it reads the first chapter with the warning message but then all i see is the 45 centerpiece rotating for hours even overnight. can someone tell me what is wrong? you can send a response to snclap2@nycap.rr.com
Thanks
Steve from Upstate NY
"If complaining is realy more your thing, have at it. You may not be looking for answers, just problems.
Slights and injustices are everywhere in the world, if that is what you focus your energies on." - AG, 2009
Welcome back Archives Guy! Good words for some TW visitors. Is it because of the financial crisis that there are so many naysayers? Or is it simply a personal depression? BSM
in reply to steve upstate new york preview disc wont work on my vaio either but works on my ps3.Any suggestions? Please email me @ dolbero@btinternet.com thanks
suggestion: use it on your PS3
The whole topic of Massey / Fillmore has been hashed out so many times ... trollers please give it a rest ... if the complaints are thoughful or new they are more tolerable than petty and old ones ... it doesn't matter what the sensible fans says these folks will keep complaining ... if they'll do it to AG they'd probably make the same petty complaint to Neil's face ... Look at the big picture -- you get the option to buy a huge body of work in an interactive format with future downloands, with a free mp3 download kicked in (based on fan requests), or you can buy cd, or dvd, or mix and match ... its like receiving a million dollar inheritance and complaining that you have to pay for a $30 cab to drive to the bank to withdraw it ... OK, its an exageration the arhives aren't the same as $1mms but the point is don't kick a gift horse in the mouth ... for me having the Massey Hall out 2 years early was worth $100 ... I've listen to it 50 times ... going to the movies today costs more than the $15 to buy Massey... the argument is completely ridiculous .... I've concluded the trolls would complain if Neil gave the BD Archives version away for free along with a $15 gift certificate.
"Does somehow one oversight or creative license somehow obliterate a career of 40 years?"
"In the meantime, if you ever bring this up again, it will be deleted pronto."
An 'oversight'? 'creative license'?? Call it what it is Thrasher. Deception. I remember at the the time you tried to justify and defend it by suggesting that Neil hadn't actually claimed the DVD was from Massey Hall, despite it being stamped on the disc itself!
This site has become nothing more than a suck-up to Neil forum anyway, so yeah, you're probably right - any criticism, however justified it may be has no place here. Delete away.
In fact I heard Neil state in interview how cool massey hall would be. And how one of the features was you could go and see footage from a show a couple days before.
I probably read the article here if anyone else remembers it.
Syscrusher
I certainly don't remember that Syscrusher, sounds like a 'get Neil out of a tight spot' attempt to me.
My argument all along was that the Massey Hall release would have been even better if Neil had of just left the Stratford audio & video together, correctly labelled it and included it as bonus DVD with the CD (which is great). To try and pass off the Stratford video as being from Massey Hall and attempting to overdub the audio detracts from the whole release. I can't even watch the DVD now, knowing that what I'm watching and listening to are two different things. As much as Thrasher hates teh subject being brought up, it was relevant in the light of Burnzy (?) claiming the Archives release was an example of 'artistic credibility' and 'respect for the fans'. Including the 'Massey Hall' DVD as part of the Archives project proper goes against both those claims. Coming clean and replacing the correct audio and relabelling it as being from Stratford would be a good start to showing some 'respect for the fans'.
I was hopin' that there might be some other authentic Massey hall footage that may not have been released yet, somewhere deep down in the archives or some random that might have super 8 it at the time,coz for memoribillia(sic) I would dearly love to have footage of me in the front row pickin' up Neil's pick when he dropped it.
Ah what a groupie! and I was only about 16 or 17 at the time.
You're right naysayer, I must be lying.
Neil really didn't put much effort into trying to fake you out on Massey Hall. It took me about 2 minutes the first time I watched it to realize the audio didn't match the video. I mean half of it is just a tape recorder spinning. You should look at it for what it is: dvd-audio with moving pictures instead of stills.
You're just looking for an easy complaint.
Syscrusher
Come off it Syscrusher! You mean that there's really no deception intended? It's supposed to just be a DVD-Audio of Massey Hall? And the moving pictures just happen to be *almost* in synch with the audio? And they just forgot to mention that the 'moving pictures' aren't actually from Massey Hall? LMAO!
It's that kind of 'Neil can do no wrong' attitude that makes this place a joke at times. Why do you suppose that there's just a tape recorder spinning on a lot of the songs? It's mostly because those are the songs that were played in Toronto but not at Stratford, so there's no video to match the audio to!
I can't believe how easily most of you have let Neil off the hook for this attempted deception. I reckon if he was caught out miming to a backing tape instead of playing live you'd find a way to excuse it. "Poor Neil must have a sore throat, give him a break..."
Hey there
Reading all the comments on this blog makes me think of my world war two era dad who watches all of the movies and instead of just enjoying the entertainment complains the whole time over how this isn't right and that was not correct, only to ruin not only his enjoyment but of everyone else around him. In the end, neil is neil and you have to accept his freakiness how he gives it to us. just enjoy the archives. I plan on giving my previous cd/dvd's of massey hall and sugar mountain to my best friend that way i dont have to spend money on his birthday present. I was able to download arcsoft total media theatre 3 to my sony vaio to get the archives to work.I am enjoying it immensely.
Steve from Upstate NY
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