The "Geffen-Like" Reactions to Dublin Concert of Neil Young & Crazy Horse
UPDATE: The reaction to the reaction of of Neil Young & Crazy Horse in Dublin has become news itself across Ireland: Neil Young and great expectations | On The Record.
RDS Arena, Dublin, Ireland - June 15
Photo Gallery by Graham Keogh
The "Geffen-Like" reactions to last night's Dublin concert of Neil Young & Crazy Horse have been both bewildering and hilarious.
Neil Young -- once again -- accused of not making Neil Young-like music. How is this possible? Definitely a case of "Why do I keep fuckin' up" without a clue.
As documented on our Twitter live blog filter yesterday, reactions to Dublin were all over the map. From joyfully positive to outraged anger.
Fantastic concert from Neil Young in the RDS tonight. What a performer!
— Jim Carney (@Chimbob) June 16, 2013
@NialOFarrell Neil Young was more interested in having 20 min feedback session with his amp after every song than playing his music : ((((
— Cormac (@CmolloyW) June 16, 2013
Even the mainstream press exhibited the typical "we get it cause we're hip, but we won't give it a positive review" with smug know-it-all arrogance.
From Neil Young and Crazy Horse trot off with a whimper - Music News | Gigs, Album Reviews & More | The Irish Times - Sun, Jun 16, 2013 by Kevin Courtney:
What was that wafting through the air at the RDS Arena last night? It was the smell of disappointment, as 18,000 Neil Young fans came to the slow and painful realisation that the man in black on stage was there only to please himself and not the modest attendance at the 30,000 capacity venue.
Neil Young can be stubbornly self-indulgent at the best of times, yet fans still held out hope that he might dust off a few of his best-known tunes on this tour, with his long-standing band, Crazy Horse.
Confoundedly, Courtney follows this negativism with back-handed, begrudging praise without the least bit of self awareness of the flawed logic and irony therein. sigh. Courtney writes:
Soon it was back to the long jam-outs on Ramada Inn, from the new album, and the very pedestrian Fuckin’ Up. In fairness, Young is a cracking lead guitarist, and he has a telepathic rapport with his Crazy Horse bandmates. You won’t hear better jamming this side of a Grateful Dead tour. But at this stage everybody was feeling the guitar solo fatigue, and by the time Young tossed the crowd a sweet treat in the form of Cinnamon Girl, it was too late. The chance to bond with one of rock’s towering heroes was lost.For many, The Grateful Dead once represented the ultimate concert experience. To have one's jams compared favorably to The Grateful Dead's long, jazzy, trippy jams is the supreme compliment. Furthermore, anyone notice the title of Neil Young & Crazy Horse's latest album? "Psychedelic Pill". Try maybe playing the album before attending your next Neil concert, maybe? That way, when Neil and The Horse hit stride with long, jazzy, improvised, trippy jams, they won't be surprised and shocked.
Of course -- as we've been thru a thousand times before on the subject of The Unbearable Lightness of Being Neil Young -- the more self-indulgent Neil is, the better. This is where the 15-20 minute "Walk Like Giant", "Cortez The Killer" or "Like a Hurricane" come from. This is what real fans want. Extended jams and experimentally challenging fare.
We've talked about before about how a Neil Young concert is almost like being part of performance artist workshop (see Expecting to See Neil Young) or how to handle the disconnect of false expectations (see The Agony & The Ecstasy: Neil Young in Concert) or whether Neil fans can ever let go of their biases and prejudices (see A Battle Raged on the Open Page: Can You Change Your Mind?).
As we commented along the way, the extreme range of reaction indicates that it was a perfect Neil Young concert. With both acoustic & electric, quiet & soft, new & old songs, that's what Neil's concerts have practically always been. A little something for everyone, if you will. Again, a near perfect setlist and not some random grab bag.
Anyone remember back in 1982 Neil & The Shocking Pinks and the Doo-Wop sets? Talk about outraged audiences. We still clearly remember some dude bellowing "Southern Man" at the top of their lungs during all of the Pinks' rockabilly tunes.
So how can one man perform a concert and folks come away with such diametrically opposed opinions? That is the mystery & beauty of Neil.
Lastly, one of the near universal complaints from the doubters is the extended feedback endings. Not everyone's cup of tea, for sure. And we can understand how this doesn't translate well in a large auditorium when you're sitting far from the stage. But if you're right up close to the stage and watching the sonic techniques used to emit the squeals, peels, distortions and feedback, than you can understand the artistry.
For us, this is the pinnacle moment of the Alchemy tour -- the "Walk Like Giant" finale meltdown.
2012 Alchemy tour, Philadelphia, 11/29/12
Neil in all of his whacked out grunged, ragged glory.
Like we said, the extended feedback endings are not everyone's cup of tea. But enough of what we think. What do you think? More or less feedback?
Stand & Be Counted!
As for us? We just ask the question ‘Are You Passionate?’? If not, fine. walk on.
UPDATE: The reaction to the reaction of of Neil Young & Crazy Horse in Dublin has become news itself across Ireland: Neil Young and great expectations | On The Record.
Labels: feedback, neil young
46 Comments:
Amen. Couldn't agree more, Thrasher! However: just singing a song won't change the world:)
Bumper stickers should be offered before tickets go on sale:
http://goo.gl/5dU75
And/or warnings on the ticket package inserts:
http://goo.gl/CaVYf
I think Thrasher could do a collection of negative reviews going back as far as possible. I think in the liner notes for the Fillmore East shows there is a piece of a review calling his extended solos for either Cowgirl or DBTR "obdurate" ( stubbornly persistent in wrong doing).
For context, though, Pitchfork said of those shows in their review of the release of the CD, "The Fillmore itself was a venue closely associated with the marathon jam sessions of bands like the Grateful Dead and the Allman Brothers, and Miles Davis' fusion experiments actually shared the bill with Young & Crazy Horse. Young's contribution to this trend were his fraternal-twin epics "Down By the River" and "Cowgirl in the Sand", each with grand valleys of open space between brief scripted moments of verse and chorus. This release is dominated by those two songs, both of which gallivant past the 10-minute mark without ever growing stale, perfect demonstrations of the chemistry between frontman and supporters."
Sounds like "Ramada Inn" today, which is a song of such hypnotic beauty and power and intensity that I certainly didn't want it to end.
"they give you this but you pay for that"
"There's a warnin' sign on the road ahead,
Neil will be playing long jams instead,
of 3 minute songs for the toe tappers,
the hip hoppers, punks & rappers"!!
Goodonyah Neil & CH, loved the 8 shows I went to in Oz and would of loved to be in Europe right now!!
The extended endings on the songs are hypnotic, you have to get into them and go with them, suck 'em up and let the those amazing notes and sonic screeches invade and infiltrate your whole psyche,
feel the power of that Giant walking across the landscape, see Cortez surrounded by his subjects, feel that rifle charging out that bullet in Powderfinger, the music tells the story of storms, tragedy, love, sorrow and joy. Its only then that you truly can get Neil in all his forms of creations and if I never, was to hear those extended jams again, I would honestly feel totally cheated...lol!!
Neil Keep on Jamming in the Free World and "Stuff" all the doubters!
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Hi Guys,
I was at the Dublin gig on Saturday night.
First things first, Neil was on fire and really getting into his groove. He was playing and singing as well as I have ever seen.
But, the actual sound at the RDS was terrible. And I think you could tell Neil was getting agitated with those issues and the pretty flat crowd who had obviously wanted to her the "hits"
It didn't help when he refereed to "Hootennays" (A Scottish term) and told the crowd sarcastically that "this is the best rock and roll crowd he has ever played to" I think that might have got people's backs up!
Also, the RDS didn't provide video screens, and there weren't the oversized speakers and scientists that have been present throughout the other shows. Maybe people thought they were getting short changed not getting the full production other cities had been treated to?
I am looking forward to his gig at the O2 in August, hopefully the crowd will be a bit more tuned in.
These concerts are perhaps the greatest of all time. I hear the "After the goldrush mob" complain after every crazy horse show. Its the reason he concedes to play a few acoustic no's in the middle to please them. Despite the wonderful beautiful genius feedback compositions the set was actually well balanced with hits, flavour and dynamics.
Do I see a defence of The Shocking Pinks here? Stop it- well at least they didn't have the long extended solos. Everyone has their own view of these shows which is fine but we all don't follow Neil blindly! When did we all last play Fork In The Road, Life, LOTW & Are You Passionate? Neil can do what we likes live - but he's overdue a record with 10 great songs.
This debate of NY has run its course. When people enjoy some of the less-loved NY material it does not necessarily mean that they follow blindly, and when people are not moved by certain artistic paths taken by Neil it does not mean they are not 'true fans'. The only thing I find laughable are fans who purchase NY&CH tix and act surprised by the resulting show. Neil has done plenty of tours w/o CH in the past decade+. He is now on tour with the Horse and you should know what to expect...buyer beware. I have never left a show disappointed (this tour included), but I find all variations satisfying. Long may he run.
Brian, Tinley Park IL
hi thrasher, at first - thanx. I'm on your side. but this grateful dead reference isn't necesserily meant to be a compliment. here in europe gd have never had the status they have in the us. and as they have rarely been here, not too many (and no young) people have ever SEEN them live (including me). so the only source are the thousands of live albums. and there are in fact enough people over here, who think that's boring lsd soaked doodeling (oh my god - now they will nail me to the next cross:-))
and in the context of the review, I think this guy didn't mean it as a compliment.
something else about the tour: I've been in berlin and loved the show - but I was a bit dissatisfied with walk like a giant. it was great....but, ....the huge noise at the end was missing - or maybe much to short and halfheartedly played. i saw 'em in red rocks and lake tahoe - so I knew how it could be .... more noise - yeah - much better :-))))) so glad they still rock - and to all the "i want to hear the hits"guys - go and listen to your records! good night mike
Hey folks
i was at the gig last night im a hardcore NY fan and i was disappointed myself, not with Neil and crazy horse but with the crowd they were the most morbid bunch i was ever at a gig with. and the sound was shocking i was pretty close to the sound desk yet with the breeze it was so patchy and in and out it kinda ruined the night. After reading reviews from Amsterdam and Glasgow i was really lookin forward to this, Ah well i might just scrape up a few quid and see him in Britain no doubt with some hardcore Neil young fans
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As for the Dublin gig, I absolutely loved it (sound was fine where I was, though it would have been better in a smaller indoors venue) as did all the Neil fans I know who attended.
Very odd comment from Adam Allen above: "It didn't help when he refered to "Hootennays" (A Scottish term)" - the implication that Irish people would be somehow offended by the use of "a Scottish term" is just bizarre.
Smack on ...this was my 22nd ny concert.....4th in a row on this tour.....Dubliners are wonderful people....but as a generalisation....all they wanted to do was talk AND DRINK during the performance......and as stated above the sound was dreadfull....but ny and ch were not.
You can write my next comments....as we are on the same wavelengh.....just on my way to London
The attitude of drunken Dublin crowds exposed by an uncompromising Crazy Horse show. Tough. You get your opportunity to get poleaxed and sing hits at most gigs. A lot of artists like the Dublin crowd solely because they're out of it. If The artist had to be in the crowd they'd realise it's not a nice experience. Glad to see you guys hate a concert I loved. You've ruined plenty for me, glad to see the boot on the other foot. (go and listen to Crazy Horse before you buy a ticket!!!)
Hi FEF,
I don't think it's a bizarre/very odd comment at all.
Clearly he lost a lot of support from the crowd at that point and I don't think that would have won them back around. Maybe he thought he was somewhere else?
Besides it was just an observation. And I think my other points were valid, not sure why we didnt have the screen and the rest of the production other cities on this tour have.
For example, a lot of people might have read this review from the Guardian
in the UK, and felt that the "theatrics" might have been an integral part of the show. I don't know why this was omitted, or even why the Crazy Horse banner appeared and disappeared before they even came on.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/jun/11/neil-young-crazy-horse-review
Any ideas?
I loved the concert i saw him in Berlin and I thought his long solos were astounding. I tried my best to get lost in the sounds. I had never felt so exhilerated by the men on stage I tried my best to block out the talking the drunkedness and the booing. I moved up closer to the crowd and it got better. I really must say. I have been to many gigs in the world and the amount of drunks that were at this one falling around the place was a bit much. I can understand the fact that NY and crazy horse had no screens for the badly positioned venue but blame the promotors not Crazyhorse.
Hey, I was jamming out to 'Drifin' Back' yesterday for like 30 minutes. And I did it of my own free will.
Love to see an extended version of that at the next live show.
Syscrusher
I feel like drifin' back
Was at the front rail in Dublin, truly superb, sound was excellently clear there also.
If I had criticism, it would be that the gig should have been indorrs at the O2 Dublin.
We got no Fender Speaker Props or the large Nicrophone and there was no light show at all, bar towards the end. The RDS has crap sound no matter who is there. The O2 Dublin would have been a better match for the ticket demand. It would have also cut out a lot of the "Casual" Neil Young fans. The ones who think they are fans, but can't even name any of the last 10 albums, and have no clue as to what he is doing now.
Rock on Neil, a masterclass on Rock gigs.
What cracks me up is the "he didn't play his great old stuff" line that gets rolled out on these occasions. In Dublin he played:
Love And Only Love and Fuckin' Up from his massive 90s comeback album; Powderfinger and Hey Hey My My, arguably the two best songs on arguably his best album; Comes A Time, a hugely popular song in the style of his biggest hits; A freakin' Bob Dylan cover; Cinnamon Girl and Mr. Soul, proper pop hits from back in the 60s; and the one that makes me despair the most - Cortez The Killer. Cortez The bloody Killer! What Neil Young fan isn't happy when Cortez gets an airing? Who ARE these people?
That's 10 bona fide classics from a 13-song setlist! But of course, he didn't play Heart of Gold. Good grief!
What was quite sad about the whole thing is that "Blowing In The Wind" seemed to get the biggest reaction of the night.
Like clockwork the same complaints come up time and time again ... not enough greatest hits, too many new songs .... ect... its so predictable .. what surprises me though is that this PP tour is not like Greendale for example where perhaps someone showed up hoping for Heart of Gold and got some kind of rock opera they never expected ... this tour is pretty much right down the middle of the fairway for Neil and CH ... a bunch of old classics, some epic new songs, even Heart of Gold ... doesn't seem like anyone should be that surprised, particularly when the set lists and videos are posted for all to see ... while it sounds like Dublin was not Neil's favorite (at least measured by song count) objectively its hard to argue that the PP tour is anything other than EPIC! Two years ago we were all debating if Neil would ever reunite with CH here we are and it would have been hard to write a better script ... the chemistry, love, positivity these guys are experiencing together is like a new chapter in the CH saga ... WLAG and Ramada are for sure all time CLASSICS on par with anything from EKTIN .... I think history will look back and call these past years the golden age of Neil's storied career ... I do think that Neil's relentless pursuit of staying fresh challenges even the most loyal fans to stay in tune with where he's at but if you do what could be better?
An ambulance can only
go so fast
It's easy to get buried
in the past
When you try to make
a good thing last.
. I think history will look back and call these past years the golden age of Neil's storied career ... I do think that Neil's relentless pursuit of staying fresh challenges even the most loyal fans to stay in tune with where he's at but if you do what could be better? - are you being serious 'golden age' what records would fall into that category? In the last 10 years we've barely had half a dozen good songs. I'm no Harvester either.
Great concert- hope you guys will read my review.
http://dublinduchess.blogspot.ie/
Are you kidding, Dublin critic?
If Cinnamon Girl is your highlight of the Alchemy Tour, "you're just a fuckup."
Neil plays what pleases Neil. Self indulgent? Of course. Any artist will do that. But with Neil, on any given night you're liable to get at least one song's performance that just knocks it out of the park. And if you've heard any of the performances on the Alchemy tour, you know there have been many.
The doubters lose their chance to hear those performances when they focus on what they want, instead of being open to what they can get from a Neil Young concert. If you want to hear the hits played just like they were recorded (and with a lot less feedback), go to a fucking Eagles concert.
Dublin Duchess, for future reference After The Gold Rush and Tonight's The Night are not Crazy Horse albums.
Perhaps Mr. Young should send his manager ahead of him to ask these 'fans' to decide for the singer what songs he should play that night. Maybe they can also suggest to Mr. Young what kind of music he should put on his next record, and maybe write the songs for him too, and show him what notes to play. That way they can make each song sound like 'Heart of Gold'
Thanks to all for thoughts & comments.
Looks like the majority like extended feedback endings. Surprise. not.
More on ThrashersWheatNeverSleeps | Facebook.
And a Glasgow review that seems to capture the dilemma:
http://www.list.co.uk/article/51959-neil-young-and-crazy-horse-secc-glasgow-thu-13-jun-2013/
LA,
The live shows in this era have been astounding ... he's pulling from a 40yr+ cannon and playing with incredible fire and passion. The '07 small venue tour was sublime ... he's put out a bunch of songs that stand up to anything he did in past decades ... in terms of albums, I think Le Noise was a throwback in that it was very strong from start to finish ... the other albums (ex FIYR which I heard some songs live and never listened to the album) have been overall strong but lack a Briggs to make them complete master pieces ... but Trunk Show (if it ever comes out) ... HUGE ... this current tour, WLAG and Ramada, ... Neil's stage presence, the chemistry of Neil and CH, the broad cannon and their mastery of it ... its a golden age my friend ... I say other than maybe sans Danny Whitten, its never been better ... if it were 1975 today ... Neil couldn't open with a roaring Love and only Love and then close with a TTN ... you know he's armed and dangerous ... he's got mastery of half a century of classic material some of which is hot off the presses and you know he had 20% of that material in 1970 ... there's always stuff to nitpick but the big picture is HUGE ... in the same way fans and critics panned his earlier stuff like the ditch trilogy only to rediscover its greatness with time ... History will judge this era extremely well ...
to Dan: some very valid points at the O2 last night it was very good but the recent songs (Pill) & new songs don't cut it for me. Last night Love and Only Love followed by Powderfinger was right up there, but then he played 'She's Always Dancing' a filler from The Pill but sounds like a song from 'Life'. Keep On Rcokin'....
I don't get the hate for "She's Always Dancing", the vocal might be a little week but that guitar sound is fantastic. Would have loved to have heard it live.
I'm sorry but Time Fades Away, Tonights The Night & On the Beach were always great records before they became the ditch trilogy & the passing of time will not have the same effect on Neil's last 6-7 records. 'She's Always Dancing' is still a stinker IMHO.
Did he even play She's Always Dancing in London? It's not on the Sugar Mountain setlist - it says the third song was Psychedelic Pill.
The last 6-7 Neil albums include "le Noise" and "Prairie Wind". I agree, this is no golden age, but those albums are far from sub-par.
The worst thing that was it was Waterboys in Dublin before Neil. They began and finished not at time (almost 1 hour of delay)! But music must stop at 11PM... And so Neil had to cut Cortez ! During Cortez, Neil asked to one of his technicians to tell him something like when music must stop in this place. Few minutes later, this guy came back with a paper and showing to him. It was written : 1 minute. Neil read that and immediatly stopped Cortez and the show! And so music stopped precisely at 11PM. Just a fuck-up.
It stopped earlier than 11pm, my uncle asked me the time at the end and it was 10:45 or so.
I travelled from the Isle of Man for this gig, specifically making an effort to see him on this tour, because it is with Crazy Horse. I wasn't disappointed with the set at all. It was ferocious, cussed and thrilling. Isn't this the music that is most charecteristic of his career? Weld, Rust, Zuma, Hurricane, Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere - all use repetitive electric guitar parts to emphasis an emotion. The acoustic stuff is more palette cleansing.
It was disappointing that the promoter thought a self-indulgent set by the Waterboys was appropriate support when ticket prices were so high.
And the crowd's reaction was a joke. I love the image one writer used of "jumpers over the shoulders" because we have few gigs here these lot turn up at any gig held on the Island then complain loudly that Billy Bragg is political or Morrissey an oddball.
Not sure if I'll keep Dublin on my list gig going destinations after this. Great city though it is the crowds at gigs by other artists in London, Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester have behaved with more understanding of an artist than this lot did and are as easy to get to as Dublin. Further afield Barcelona and even Paris have had better atmosphere.
Also I'd add that during Cortez, a man appeared onstage holding a 1 minute to go sign, that brought the show to an end. 10-45 or 11-00 is immaterial.
Rising above the RDS-Dublin to get on the plain's with Crazy Horse.................................. I had a spirit-soaring time on Saturday seeing Neil and Crazy Horse for the 1st time. Had seen him previously with his Electric Band in 2009 and with Booker T and the MG's in 1993. All unique experiences. This was the crazy horse atmosphere and the elements went with it quite effectivley! . Have read all the reviews and for myself, i rose above all of it to simply enter into the spirit of the band. Dublin crowds do get too wasted and loud on the ol' drink and the PA and technical side could have been so much better....stupid lazy greedy promoters not doing there job here....its got a reputation for it. Also , yes i wished there had been a longer encore and the full amount of songs they're doing on this tour. (Dublin equalled only one other place so far with the least amount of songs performed---the other place was in March at 'The Winery' in Geelong, Australia). So, i rose above those aspects and had a memorable time catching this legendary band of musical shamen take us to rare places. So, thanks for putting up with the negatives Crazy Horse and see ya's again....but perhaps not in Dublin !
I love Neil and was there Saturday in Dublin. Where were the props Neil? Where were the science boffin roadies? Why did we get no big screen? Was it too windy to bring down the keyboard for Hurricane? The piano was soundchecked and then never used? When you go to gigs as often as I do you tend to notice when someone plays amazing but brings a half arsed show!!!! Sound was blown all over the place by the wind too.
Well a mixed bag of reviews from my home town of Dublin Ireland for last Saturday Night's gig. I was unable to attend this gig as i was at Download watching Iron Maiden but had the immense privilege to see him and Crazy Horse in Birmingham on Tuesday 11th June. Neil and the Horse were brilliant.People should remember that there is more to Neil Young than Harvest and After the Goldrush. Neil Young s one hell of an electric guitarist and again displayed this in Birmingham. Neil keep on Rockin In The Free world and Thank you for the immense pleasure that your music has given me over the decades. PS Dublin WAKE UP AND SMELL THE HORSE!!!!!!!
"WAKE UP AND SMELL THE HORSE!. Sorry Anonymous, but if I read one more comment suggesting that we Dublin fans were just stupidly unready for this type of concert, I will scream. How often do we need to repeat. This was a CRAP venue,people couldnt hear half the songs,if you were seated you could not see the stage. No props, no big screen, not even the CH logo for Gods sake. It appeared prior to the concert and then was lowered, in favour of a backdrop of flapping black plastic.And that was the tone of the whole night. Cheap production and complete disdain for the fans. Neil and the Horse did their best, but when you have to strain to catch the best parts of a song, then its all wrong. Fine if you were on the rail. Thats where I would have loved to be. But i am a pensioner with some mobility issues and it just is not feasible for me so I still stand but a way back. I am sure it was a better concert from up there. That doesnt mean that everyone else does not matter. Neil has such a preoccupation with good sound. There has to be some blame laid with his people for accepting this awful venue. Just because the tickets did not sell out , short cuts were taken, and the weather was the final nail in this concert. It was galling to see how well the same show was staged in London. Transport it to where we were and the punters would feel very different. I hope Neil comes back again to a somewhat better but indoor venue like the 02 Dublin. I would hate to think that this is the last time I see him,it left such a poor legacy. So please lay off us real Neil fans. We loved the music and knew what we were going to see,but it was a real struggle to enjoy it with such terrible production.
I was at the front at the RDS and had a great time, as did everyone around me - except when the drunken idiots who tried to push their way to the front part way through Neil's set. One of whom got punched to the ground after flailing around and annoying everyone for 20 minutes.
The wind was obviously a problem at the venue. It was blowing towards the stage at an angle, which would have impaired the enjoyment for anyone not close to the stage. In terms of the Crazy Horse banner, I think they tried to raise it but it was not straight and so they decided to lower it.
After playing mainly indoor venues on this leg of the tour and being generally well received, I think if this concert had been at the O2, there would have been less negative comments.
I thought Neil & the Horse were in fine form - they all looked relaxed onstage and enjoying themselves, with plenty of smiles. Certainly, there seems to be a telepathic link between them when they play that is a joy to behold. Neil looked bemused by the audience reaction and the fact that he never uttered a word to the audience until after Cinnamon Girl didn't really help the communication between artist and audience as only those of us close to the stage could see what was actually happening onstage, let alone hear anything.
Pity that they're not coming back on the second leg to play indoors when both fans and artists can have a "kiss and make up" reunion! :-D
4 months on. still remains a highlight. it wasnt pastiche, it was viral raw and live. It was everything you would want from a live performance. It DEMANDED interaction, and love and a willingness to explore. If I want to listen to a jukebox I'll gladly stick on my headphones. I will never forget this superb concert. thank you Crazy Horse and Neil.
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