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Wednesday, October 06, 2010

It's A Very, Very Angry World, Indeed - UPDATED

Historical Marker for
Kent State, Ohio Massacre - May 4, 1970

On Neil Young's latest album "Le Noise", the song "Angry World" attempts to capture some of the rage that is coursing through the veins of the body politic today.

Some see life as a broken promise.
Some see life as an endless fight.
They think we live in the Age of Darkness.
They think we live in the Age of Light.
It’s an angry world and everything is going to be all right.
Yeah it’s an angry world.

In one of the more remarkable editorials we've seen in awhile, in today's Washington Post, columnist Richard Cohen writes about conservatives and hate.

While nothing too new there, Cohen uses Neil Young's song "Ohio" to illustrate his points. The editorial needs to be read in full to appreciate Cohen's thesis and how the 1970's rage of "Ohio" mirrors today's unhinged Tea Party hate.

Cohen writes:
[The lyrics of "Young's "Ohio"] was the language of that time.

And now it is the language of our time. It is the language of Glenn Beck, who fetishizes about liberals and calls Barack Obama a racist. It is the language of rage that fuels too much of the Tea Party and is the sum total of gubernatorial hopeful Carl Paladino's campaign message in New York. It is all this talk about "taking back America" (from whom?) and this inchoate fury at immigrants and, of course, this raw anger at Muslims, stoked by politicians such as Newt Gingrich and Rick Lazio, the latter having lost the GOP primary to Paladino for, among other things, not being sufficiently angry. "I'm going to take them out," Paladino vowed at a Tea Party rally in Ithaca, N.Y.

I hear "Ohio" more clearly now than I ever did.

It is a distant sound from our not-so-distant past, but a clear warning about our future. Four dead in Ohio. Not just a song. A lesson.

And -- predictably so -- when you read the 100's of comments in reaction it only goes to support Cohen's argument. In comment after comment, anger and venom spew forth from the frightened ultra-radical conservative movement. It's truly a scary spectacle as they drive themselves over the cliff.

So go read Cohen's editorial in the Washington Post.

More on Video of Neil Young's "Angry World" from Le Noise and lyrics.

Also, see Lyrics Analysis of Neil Young's "Ohio".

"How can YOU run when you know?"

UPDATE: Huge blogosphere reaction to editorial. See:

- The Worst Column of the Year: Congratulations Richard Cohen! - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine
- DownWithTyranny!: Richard Cohen gets it seriously right about right-wing hate speech
- Richard Cohen: Conservative Words Will Kill People | The FOX Nation (see comments)
- Mad Lib of the Day: Richard "Scarecrow" Cohen - Tea Party Speech Causes Things Like Kent State, Dead Presidents : Useful Info Nation Blog
- Tea Party rhetoric to blame for 1970 Kent State shooting, says Richard Cohen - Spokane conservative |
- Richard Cohen blames Tea Party for Kent State shootings - Sean Hannity Discussion
- Richard Cohen: ‘I Have to Repress a Tear’ : The Other McCain
- WaPo’s Richard Cohen gets nostalgic … [Darleen Click]
- Richard Cohen Morphs in Charles Johnson -
- five feet of fury. (unions are for losers.)
- Ed Driscoll » This Autumn I Hear the Drumming, More Brain-Dead in Old WaPo
- WWW.STARGTH.INFO (A): Richard Cohen attack on tea party
- Aging Columnist on a Bike Sees Dead People at Tea Parties | The Lonely Conservative
- The Mahablog » Richard Cohen’s Flashbacks
- Left Coast Rebel: Richard Cohen, Another Who Just Doesn't Get It
- Mad Lib OTD: Richard "Scarecrow" Cohen - Tea Party Speech Causes Death & Destruction
- Richard Cohen: The ignorant are defining Obama (Wizbang)

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At 10/06/2010 07:47:00 AM, Blogger Dan said...

Seriously, Thrasher? Painting with broad strokes much? We are all free to have our own political beliefs.

The current administration is really hitting it out of the park with permanent job creation and fixing the economy. At least they've been saving jobs - a stat nobody in history has ever given two cents about.

I suppose my sarcastic comments make me an angry, white, uber-conservative full of hate and venom?

Give me a break.

The left is just as hateful and has just as much venom coming from it as the right - you just don't see it because you are part of it. Have you seen the way some of the ultra-left label republicans and tea-party supporers? I'm not one of them, but do you really think that they are all super rich racists that don't care at all about the majority of the country?

If so - it's just as far to say that leftists just want to live off of the government dole. The current crop is happy to keep that going because they know they'll keep getting the votes in return when people have no choice.

The current administration has been in place for nearly two years now. Will they ever take responsibility for anything?

At 10/06/2010 08:24:00 AM, Blogger tim said...

Plese skip the political on this website. It really just infuriates people and causes bad blood between friends.

At 10/06/2010 08:36:00 AM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...


Liberals aren't the ones out spreading hate. I try to be fair-minded about these things, but you're just flat wrong.

Liberals characterize Tea Partiers like caricatures of racism, ignorance and hatred because they ACT THAT WAY.

Liberals call the Republicans obstructionists and 'The Party of NO', because Republicans ACT THAT WAY.

People on the left are not out angrily picking on brown people and demanding they be thrown out of the country because of the color of their skin.

Leftists are not out there spewing racist, anti-Muslim epithets and demanding that a private citizen not be allowed to build a place of peaceful worship for followers of his religion, using its proximity to the 9/11 site as a scapegoat for their religous bigotry.

What is the left complaining about?

Let's see...

The left gets mad because Democrats and Republicans get in the way of...


Or, how about this one. Those damn liberals are out there getting angry because they want to BRING OUR TROOPS HOME FROM THE WAR SO THEY DON'T GET KILLED, and USE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR SOCIAL PROGRAMS TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED! HOW EVIL!!

Oh, how... hateful.


Not all conservatives are super rich racists. I know many who are good friends and wouldn't touch the Tea Party, Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck with a 500' pole.

But the ones shooting off their mouths in the media are, and the ones who go out and protest nonexistent boogeymen and use the word 'socialist' because they can't say 'n!@@#r', well they're full of hate and bigotry too.

And before you go painting me as an Obama-worshipping freak, I'm not that either. I don't like Obama much, but I'm not against him based on ignorance, bigotry or conspiracy theories, and neither I or any other person on the left are going to show up at rallies walking around with a gun trying to intimidate conservatives with less-than-veiled threats of violence.

So say what you will about the government 'doing a good job' or not, chances are we'll agree.

But name ONE THING that people on the left have done recently that can be considered truly hateful.

Wanting to "live off the government dole" (as you so conveniently generalize) is an act of hate?

The last I heard, they, and myself, were at a march in Washington asking the government to end the war and fund job creation instead. You know, having real ideas instead of ranting hatefully and spreading stupid paranoid lies and fomenting the threat of violence (which they seemingly adore).

So when the left accuse the right of acting hateful, it is not itself an act of hate, it is a recognition of the truth. There's a huge difference.

At 10/06/2010 08:52:00 AM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Wow - nice can of worms here Thrasher. Richard Cohen? Please. Never in my life have I been more convinced that the media and the left (but I repeat myself) are working together in lockstep to paint the Tea Part movement as hateful and violent. Give me a break. Because we actually support fiscal sanity (something this administration seems to know nothing about) and keeping the money that we earn, we are labeled as racist? It's a classic Saul Alinski tactic. Change the subject and then attack.

This usurper sitting in the White House has gone around the world apologizing for America and it's pathetic. He is a 100% embarassment to the office that he holds.

I'm no fan of war, George Bush, or Republicans. But at least I never questioned whether he was TRYING to do the right thing for our country. These clowns seem purposefully hellbent on knocking America down and in fact bankrupting future generations.

The Tea Party is a true grassroots movement that has NOTHING to do with the color of anyone's skin. Another red herring from the left.

Good grief Thrasher.

At 10/06/2010 08:58:00 AM, Blogger Jonathan said...

But yes I agree that it's an Angry World. No doubt about it.

At 10/06/2010 09:42:00 AM, Blogger SONY said...

Like Bob says -

Popaganda always phony

my momma always said no talk of poitics or religion at the table

At 10/06/2010 10:14:00 AM, Blogger Thrasher said...

@Tim - With all due respect, when folks say "don't get political", it's really code for don't be involved.

It's what the elite say to the ordinary people. Just be happy & tune out.

It's code for don't get involved in working for change & hope. That everything is fine the way they are.

And if you think everything is going work out alright, then you're missing irony.

There is a rumblin' on this blog.

We can feel it start to shake...

"Can’t you feel that new wind blowing?
Don’t you recognize that sound, that sound?"


At 10/06/2010 10:50:00 AM, Blogger Alex said...

I'm with Tim on this one. Your one-sided political arguments get really old when I come to this site for news on Neil Young, not liberal talking points.

And things are definately "not fine the way they are". Just look at the unemployment figures and the overall strength of the economy which is in the toilet.

The irony is the fact that the only "hope and change" acceptable to you is when it is used as a campaign slogan for your beliefs.

I also feel it is in complete bad taste and downright offensive to link the Tea Party movement to a massacre at a college campus 40 years ago.

Go to a tea party rally and please document the hate and violence you insinuate with your commentary. I have a feeling you will see people of many races and beliefs expressing their right to demonstrate their beliefs and protesting against a government that they disagree a NON-VIOLENT manner.

The only corelation between Kent State and the current Tea Party movement is: freedom of assembly and freedom of speech.

At 10/06/2010 10:59:00 AM, Blogger asg said...

can't BELIEVE this is happening here, and apparently THRASHER himself started it...there are THREE things that even the best of friends (much less casual acquaintences)should discuss with caution--religion,politics, and MUSIC...

At 10/06/2010 11:04:00 AM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Right on there Alex!!! The left is intimidated by the Tea Party because for far too long, conservative Americans have gone about their lives quietly and have never risen up to protest anything.
Now that they have, look at the slander cast upon millions who happen to vehemently disagree with policies that are guaranteed to fail - like borrowing and printing money ad naseum to the detriment of my children and their generation.

And yes - trying to link the Tea Party to what happened at Kent State in 1970 is over the top. But Richard Cohen and the Washington Compost will stop at nothing to disparage the integrity of a movement that at its core is about preserving freedom and our nation's founding principles.

If it wasn't for double standards, the left wouldn't have any.

At 10/06/2010 11:21:00 AM, Blogger Thrasher said...

@Dan, Jonathan, asg, Alex:
Well your responses perfectly illustrate Cohen's point.

Also, please bear in mind that it's not TW that is linking the Tea Party with Kent State. It's the Wash Post op-ed by Richard Cohen.

Again, if you read the editorials reader comments and the blogosphere reaction, this topic has risen to a national debate. So we're only pointing out the editorial and the larger debate. We'd be doing our readers a disservice to ignore it, as some of you would prefer. IOW, repress those ideas that disagree with your world view, if you will.

Listen, this is Neil's ultimate song. it will be the one he will be remembered for the longest. Not HOG. Ohio is political. Get over it.

The analogy of the 70's rage and today's is perfectly valid,legitimate & real.

Listen to Le Noise. The title of this post is based on the song Angry World. That's true. Don't deny it.

Funny how it's OK to discuss politics that you agree with and forbidden when you disagree.

If people can't talk about religion & politics than we have a real problem. We've started a conversation here.

We can disagree politely. Thanks for keeping this discussion relatively clean.

Cause there's a rumblin'.

Believe it.

At 10/06/2010 12:02:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Sorry... flipped out there...

However, in the context of Neil's quite political music, I can't really say we shouldn't discuss politics.

I understand it makes some people uncomfortable, but I'm willing to agree to disagree about something with you all, and still respect everyone here.

Pardon my incensed response to Dan, but I simply disagree with the POV that the left is anywhere near as hateful as very visible, mainstream elements on the right, who embrace conspiracy theories, parade around with guns, and move underlying racism and religious bigotry back into the mainstream while the media fans the flames and keeps us divided.

Also, to be truly honest, I think that we're all being deliberately distracted into fighting amongst ourselves. All of this infighting is manufactured by the status quo politicians and corporate interests to keep us divided and weakened.

If we learned to work together and stop squabbling over stupid crap (ahem 9/11 Mosque, "socialism vs. capitalism", etc., we might actually be a threat to the status quo.

That's what the politicians and corporate lobbies are afraid of. The PEOPLE united.

So, I think we can all find a way to work together regardless of our differences. Of course, you'll all have to agree to the best course of action, which might sometimes fall outside of your "ideological" perspectives.

(Such as single-payer health care, which needs to stop being demonized as some kind of evil "socialist" thing by giant corporations who want nothing more than to make huge profits by impoverishing, and eventually killing, sick people.)


At 10/06/2010 12:04:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Respectfully Thrasher, how did our responses "perfectly illustrate Cohen's point"?

You're coming across with a one sided slant and anyone that disagress is violent and hateful.

When the left disagreed with the countless stupid things that George Bush did over eight years, were they being hateful and violent?

Or is it only when conservatives have an opinion that those terms apply?

I respect sound arguments rooted in facts - not platitudes - on both sides.

Please explain how Cohen makes ANY valid points. But please base your argument in fact, not Obama/Democrat age old stereotypes about the right.

Peace and love (yes I believe in it and I'm a conservative)

At 10/06/2010 12:10:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Matt - respectfully - the reason single payer healthcare is demonized is based on the quality of care offered in countries which have such a thing. Extremely long waits for care, rationing of care, death panels (yes they exist in Cuba and England), etc.

Do you really want a trip to the doctor to become analogous to a trip to the DMV - or worse? Because that's where we are headed.

The problem with socialism is that eventually governments run out of other people's money.

At 10/06/2010 12:10:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

I agree with this statement from Alex:

" The irony is the fact that the only "hope and change" acceptable to you is when it is used as a campaign slogan for your beliefs. "

Also, you know what? I think I will take up your challenge, Alex, and attend a Tea Party rally. I'm going to bring my camera and document the whole thing. I'll letcha know if I find all that racism and religious bigotry I keep yammerin' about.

Okay, I'll close my big mouth for awhile now, I promise.



At 10/06/2010 12:26:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Jonathan -

"Extremely long waits for care, rationing of care, death panels (yes they exist in Cuba and England), etc."

Also respectfully, I think you're buying into demonization from the right that isn't an actual reflection of truth.

I don't believe wait times there are any less than what we have here (why'd I recently have to wait over a month for a needed procedure?)

And "death panels" is just a catch phrase made up by Republicans, Blue Dogs and CEOs who work for the health insurance industry, and I have yet to get an in-depth explanation from an unbiased source describing exactly what these panels are and what they do.

Of course, you could say that the employees of Insurance Companies whose job functions are literally to figure out ways to deny needed care to people are a form of "death panel".

But why not give people an option? Let 'em both exist (private and public systems), side-by-side and we'll see what happens. Makes sense to me.

(Okay, I promise, I'm closing my trap at least for a couple hours! lol)

At 10/06/2010 12:50:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Fair enough Matt, indeed.

I think that it's important to remember that the violence that occured at Kent State was initiated by and committed by the government - in that case National Guard troops sent in by...the government.

The Tea Party is protesting and speaking out against...the government. How many arrests, assaults, etc. have occured at Tea Party rallies since they began in early 2009 after the phony failed "stimulus" package? I believe that number would be zero.

Fighting amongst ourselves as Americans is very sad and foolish in many ways. I for one marvel at mankind's inablity to govern ourselves without wars, corruption, etc.

But despite the very nature of human beings which seems to inevitably lead to war and corruption, it was the very founding of the United States itself which served(and still does) as a template for ordered liberty - freedom from oppresive tyranny.

The larger a government grows, the more individual freedom is taken away. Sorry but that's the way it works. And since 2009 we have witnessed an absolute explosion in the growth of one industry and only one = government. I and millions like me are far from comfortable with that fact.

Am I cold-hearted because I feel that I should be able to keep the money that I earn - most if it anyway? Of course there are important limited roles for the federal government, but health care just isn't on of them. Sorry. Neither is buying majority stakes of car companies, banks, and on and on. Government doesn't create - it takes away.

In one of Neil's numerous interviews recently (this is a Neil Young site, right?) he talks about the Rumblin' brewing out there - something he can't put his finger on exactly. Once again, Neil's dead-on accurate.

November is just the beginning of the Rumblin' coming to Capitol Hill - where the gangter thiefs of government will hopefully be thrown out on their collective asses and we can begin to restore some fiscal sanity to our great nation.

Wow that felt good.

Peace and love.

At 10/06/2010 01:51:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Since Thrash updated the post, my favorite article title is from the Lonely Conservative:

"Aging Columnist on a Bike Sees Dead People at Tea Parties"

Ha ha lol

You can't accuse the right of not being creative writers, I'll give 'em that.

At 10/06/2010 02:03:00 PM, Blogger liverust said...

I love it when Republicans talk about Health Care in other Countries like Ours in Canada. I was Born Covered. Never Paid for a single visit to a Hospital or Doctor. Since moving from Ont. to BC, that was the first time I ever had to pay a Monthly Fee for Health Care. Do you pay less then $52 a Month for yours. It seemed like a leap to me but I walk into a Doctors Office, any Doctors Office including Specialists, for whatever reason and walk out without a Cent leaving my Pocket beyond that monthly fee. Is it the same for you? Not preaching, just clarifying what might not be understood about "Our" Health Care.

At 10/06/2010 02:05:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Jonathan - I get your point on big government, and I agree with the basic premise.

However, it's important to note in what manner the government grows as much as the simple fact that it grows, plus who is actually in control of it.

The 'war' side of government has grown enormously since 2001, and now the financial side grows and grows.

But Republicans and Democrats alike just love to grow the government in ways that benefit their corporate pals.

The problem is that they don't grow it in a way that helps you and me, or gives us relief from underwater mortgages or medical bills, etc.

Sure, we can debate whether it's the government's job to provide relief to its citizens, but my point is that it hasn't, even as it's grown and grown.

One thing I think we need to fear equally, as much as we do big government, is out-of-control giant corporations. There's not much of a difference between the two when it boils down to it, in terms of their ability to oppress and destroy freedom, and destroy peoples' lives.

So where's the checks and balances between the two?

When the government serves the interests of corporations (and I really believe that ours does, which is why we don't have anything like a public option, and why social programs for people are being eroded and destroyed and replaced with social programs for corporations ( TARP, the stimulus, Health Reform(tm), etc. (all Democrat reforms, all creating corporate profits, and none helping people... ).

This is the problem as I see it.

When we can remove corporations from government, then we can have a government that works for the interests of people.

Right now, it doesn't, and neither do they. Government and corporate interests are working together for their own gain, while we divide and fight amongst ourselves.

Funny, the same people who complain about "socialism" like it's a boogeyman, are the same people who WANTED TARP to pass so that they could pay themselves giant bonuses with TAXPAYER MONEY.

Socialism for the rich, Capitalism for the poor.

I guess that's how they really want it.

At 10/06/2010 02:13:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

liverust - thank you for your comments.

It's not the same for us at all.

We pay upwards of hundreds of dollars per month for basic coverage, and then we have to pay co-pays on top of that, and make up the difference for whatever the insurance companies arbitrarily decide they don't feel like paying for.

The only way you pay anything like $52.00 per month is if you are part of a corporate pool, and even then you have to pay co-pays, deductibles, and bills for procedures not covered.

I recently received 2 bills from an anesthesiologist for $1,700.00 each. That's $3,400.00 just for anesthesia, that doesn't even include the procedures themselves.

Not looking for sympathy here, just providing a personal example as a comparison point.

At 10/06/2010 02:16:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Oh, then there's the $72.00 bills I receive like magic in the mail every time a doctor does a blood test. That's on top of a $25.00 co-pay and the $80.00 per month for insurance coverage through my job.

That's $177.00 for a simple blood test.

At 10/06/2010 02:28:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

@Liverust - first I want to emphasize that I'm NOT a Republican. I am a conservative/libertarian. BIG difference. To your point about national health care up there in Canada : I won't pretend to know what it's like in reality to be an average citizen covered under the government umbrella because I don't.

What I do know is that the coverage you describe as free and that it didn't cost you a cent ISN'T FREE! Come on - who do you think is paying the bill? The magical government benevolent fairie? No - the taxpayers of Canada are paying your doctor bill. Nothing is free and that's a cold hard fact that liberals here in the states seem to not be able to grasp. In order for the Canadian government - or any government - to pay anyone's medical bills, they must first take real money out of someone's pocket through a tax or some other method by which they confiscate money that they DIDN'T EARN.

@ Matt - I'm slowly admiring your thoughts the way you lay them out here. Even though I first pegged you as a lib just toting the Democrat line, I see that I was wrong (which I often am).

You are 100% correct that the government/corporation unholy alliance is ruining jobs and the lives of Ordinary People. Then throw in the military industrial complex and it's even worse.

I feel that's the real Rumblin' out there under her ground. Pepole have had enough of exactly the crap you are describing, Matt. And yes it's Angry. Very Angry.

That's the only thing I'd agree with Richard Cohen on or any other left wing "journalist" who portrays the Tea Party as kooks.

We're not kooks - we're patriots deeply concerned about the direction of our nation.

Peace and love (Lennon's good-bye)

At 10/06/2010 03:16:00 PM, Blogger Steve Lucas said...

I am not that interested in US politics TBH but when I read about "death panels in England" and am assured they exist I suspect that the standard of debate isnt very high.

At 10/06/2010 03:18:00 PM, Blogger SONY said...

@Thrasher - I saw this article in the paper this morning and thought "I wonder if Thrasher saw this - I should pdf him a copy"

WOW, am I in the back of the line here.

I can not debate the party labels, positions, policies, fantacies, accuracies. etc...I'm outta tune in this debate as I generally don't follow that closely. I'm not oblivious to it, I just don't get involved too deeply.

But, sonnofgun...this chatter certainly answers the question of ...Are You Passionate?

I generally have the Apolitical Blues and hold to the line that 'nobody's right, if everybody's wrong'. But I do hope for some new blood in November that will serve the people rather than the politcal machine we've come to know.

At 10/06/2010 03:41:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Nice self-rightetous post there Mr. Lucas. Let us mere peons know how we can reach your level of intellectual enlightenment.

At 10/06/2010 04:11:00 PM, Blogger Steve Lucas said...

Well, either (1) substantiate your claims about "death panels" or,assuming you can't, (2) do some proper research about health care systems in countries other than your own.

At 10/06/2010 04:31:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Wow are you arrogant, Mr. Lucas.

Are you going to defend the N.I.C.E. organization over in Great Britain? Established in 1999, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (N.I.C.E.) deems who is and who isn't worthy of receiving rationed care.

It's a death panel by definition genius. If some bureaucrat in government is deciding who gets care and who doesn't - that's not freedom and it certainly isn't health care the way I understand it.

I'll wait for your arrogant response.

At 10/06/2010 04:55:00 PM, Blogger Steve Lucas said...

NICE sets national guidelines for clinical practice,including decisions (based on cost-effectiveness analysis)on which treatments the NHS is prepared to fund. As you pointed out to someone else, national health offered free at the point of delivery is not free - it has to be paid for by the taxpayer or national insurance contributor. Given the spiralling cost of healthcare treatments, there has to be some assessment of what treatments provide sufficient value (in terms of quality of life and extension of life, etc.). It is important to realise that NICE has no role in deciding on the course of treatment for individual patients: it sets policy,it is not involved in implementing it. Of course, non-NHS funded treatments may still be offered by private insurance scheme, but as someone pointed out above, no private insurer that wants to stay in business can afford to operate a blank cheque policy either...

At 10/06/2010 05:36:00 PM, Blogger Thos said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

At 10/06/2010 05:37:00 PM, Blogger Thos said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

At 10/06/2010 05:42:00 PM, Blogger Thos said...

I have a lot of respect for America both as a country and a concept, but sometimes I am just so glad to be British, particularly when politics comes up - man you guys have some real hatred issues between the left and the right!

Just for the record, in the UK we have completely free health care which is at an excellent standard, world class (don't believe all the stuff the republicans say about it, a lot of it is simply not true).

And in real terms NICE's main role is to ensure that drugs have been proven safe by clinical trials, rather than rushing new ones into use and harming patients (as happened with thalidomide in the late 50s for example). It does make some decisions based on cost-efficiency, but in practice the only drugs people strongly disagree about NICE refusing to fund are ones which have been proven to prolong the life of a cancer patient by a matter of a few weeks, but which cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to do so. There is some debate about this as a system, but at least it is different to allowing people to get sick and die whilst denying them healthcare because they can't afford it. I cannot believe people are fighting to keep a system like that! Talk about lack of compassion.

However, if you were to live in Britain and decide you don't want NHS treatment, there is also the option of getting health insurance and paying for your own hospital treatment, which does reduce waiting times somewhat, but in fact the vast majority of doctors in the private sector are NHS doctors doing private work for extra cash - so the quality of care is almost identical.

And I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of US politics, but it seems Barack Obama inherited a rotten financial system already in recession from two terms of Republicans being in charge, so how come they are criticising him for it now after only a short time in office? It takes time to turn an entire economy around, especially a behemoth economy like the USAs - it will certainly take a number of years, particularly while the country is bleeding (literally) billions of dollars into futile wars in the Middle East.

As I say, that is possiby a not-fully-informed observation, but I just wanted to make it clear that just because the UKs health service is different to America's, it is very good indeed, and its quality isn't compromised by it being completely fair.


Did some research, according to the World Health Organisation, the USA is 37th best healthcare provider in the world:

And in terms of fairness, looking after the poorest people in our countries, the UK's health service is joint 8th most fair in the world, and the USA's health service is joint 54th most fair: (pages 197-200)

At 10/06/2010 05:45:00 PM, Blogger Dan said...

So let me get this straight - it's fair to label all Tea Party supporters are racists? So that mean's I can call all leftists socalist race baiters, right? I mean - if one double standard is fair, shouldn't the other be?

Of course you guys will object.

You guys have done a great job of drinking from Washington's dish about how all Tea Party supporters are racist hate mongers. Wanting a fiscally sound government that listens to the will of the people is really such a bad cause to support, huh? It makes so much more sense for them to just tell us what we should do.

The President blasts Fox News for being a sham, but leaves all MSNBC, NBC and CBS. Extremely credible, huh?

You guys enjoy your double standards all you want. I'll read along and chuckle in the mean time. I just hope Washington keeps telling me how to live because I'm certainly not smart enough to figure it out on my own. Luckily some of you guys are.

At 10/06/2010 06:15:00 PM, Blogger Thos said...

Dan, you do a great line in sarcasm, love it mate!


At 10/06/2010 06:47:00 PM, Blogger Thrasher said...

@Dan - To quote -- again -- from above editorial:

New York conservative Republican Tea Party supported primary candidate Carl Paladino: "I'm going to take them out," Paladino vowed at a Tea Party rally in Ithaca, N.Y.

What exactly about "I'm going to take them out" doesn't imply lethal violence and audience incitement?

Do you not see or understand how dangerous all this rumblin' is?

throw your hatred down


At 10/06/2010 07:23:00 PM, Blogger Sandy Horne said...

Well, FWIW, I have lived in Canada and the US (mom was Canadian and dad American) so I have experience with both systems. From my personal experience, the Canadian system is far superior. Had an uncle that required long-term nursing care. Have you ever been in a nursing home in the US? Canadian health Care is free and top notch, again, at least from my experience. And yes, the govt. does fund the health care system but it doesn't spend the money that we do on supporting wars. I guess they just have a different priority for where the tax dollars go.

I can't understand why the health of the citizens in the US is not a priority. What does that say about us as a people? It's shameful.

At 10/06/2010 09:07:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

At 10/06/2010 09:32:00 PM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Bah, I have a hard time with this whole Tea Party thing.

I think it's important to separate the Tea Party's founders from its supporters.

I've met lots of supporters who seem like genuine, nice people with libertarian or conservative leanings who just want what's right for the world in the context of their world-view.

But then there are those toting guns around and brandishing signs of Obama with a Hitler mustache and all kinds of other lunacy about Kenyan Socialists. Whatever. I'm not afraid of those people either.

I don't think all tea party supporters are racist hate mongers by a long-shot.

But it's not just a bunch of righty economic nerds talking about sound fiscal policy.

I think we can agree to disagree about social programs and what-not - I lean toward the left, and generally support social programs to help people. I think it's funny how people on the right claim to not support social programs, but they mostly support social programs to kill people. Y'know, like war.

But the Tea Party movement is not a grass-roots movement by the strict definition of the phrase.

It was created by FreedomWorks, run by Dick Armey and other wealthy, hard-right neocons as a way of rallying the conservative voting base to vote for people who will support THEIR agenda.

Dick Armey was a member of the Council for National Policy.

Steve Forbes is also a co-chair of FreedomWorks - he signed the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century, the group that produced the presidency of G.W. Bush and the war in Iraq and has plans laid out for militaristic world conquest.

So... I have nothing per se' against Tea Party supporters in general, it's their founders that freak me out.

Jonathan, you seem like a smart, clear-thinking Libertarian. A good friend of mine is a dyed in the wool Libertarian.

I think Libertarians and leftists like myself often get along on some levels - one being the merger of government and corporations, which is the biggest threat to our democracy right now, and which is why they want us divided and bickering and distracted.

Unfortunately, I think Mr.s Armey and Forbes are part of that corporate status quo, arms of the overarching corporate agenda to undermine and eventually destroy our government, and thus our Democracy.

A lot of non-corporate Libertarians seem to gravitate to the Tea Party, but I think there are corporations behind the scenes who are benefiting from it.

Really, though, they're benefiting from our division. We need to learn to come together, right and left, and agree to work to dethrone the Corporatists that control our government.

We could have a perfectly functional left and right coalition government without all the corporate-vetted politicians.

I like Dennis Kucinich, and Ralph Nader. I even like Ron Paul, because, while I don't agree with his fiscal policies in general, I don't think he's controlled by corporations - in fact, he's very much aware of the corporate fascism threatening our country.

Once we unseat the corporatists from dominance of our government, then we can start using the government to do good things for the people, or argue about what social programs we should implement and what kinds of unfettered freedoms people should have.

Social Libertarian, Fiscal Communist

(Which I believe is called Anarcho-Syndicalism)

heh heh

At 10/06/2010 09:59:00 PM, Blogger doc said...

Fk..and I don't even drink tea!

Every time politics raises its ugly head around here..aligned or Neil or whatever..people obviously become split in their sides or beliefs.

For the sake of harmony on this site..lets just keep the topics to Neil's music and leave the politics to the Washington post hey!

Johnathon glad to see you back!...
I missed you!

luv doc( with a lower case d)

At 10/06/2010 10:07:00 PM, Blogger ShittyHorse said...

Look, I'm not a political expert at all- I do not belong to any camp, party, school of thought- and I like it that way- you join and party and you HAVE to buy into everything they do, and say, more or less. I agree and disagree with things on both sides of party lines.
What I do know is the middle class is shrinking- fast. Our government is owned by corporations- not the people. It is no longer a question of IF a politician is a crook- its a question of how much of a crook he or she is. It has become perfectly acceptable for us to watch political commercials from both sides pointing out the immoral, almost criminal activities of the other. Then in November we have to vote for one of them!? I'd rather prosecute um and throw um in jail- not have them decide what to do with my money, my health care, my kids education. Is Heath care a mess? Hell Yeah- I just don't know if I it run by a bunch of criminals, and I don't necessarily disagree with socialized medicine.
The system is SO broken and our once great nation is being broken up and whored out to the highest bidder. I find it sad beyond belief.
The point of this article, I believe is to point out that all this hate and finger pointing only leads to more hate and violence. Its true. Americans are scared- and they should be. The same people that produce our soap, our clothes, our light bulbs, our cars, our newspapers, our drugs our guns, our condoms, are the ones calling the shots. Where is their allegiance? Is to the little guy- me, you, the middle class, is it to our country? Is it to the thousands who have died overseas? Nope, it is to their wallet and bank account. The Huns have broken though the city gates and are now raping our women and pillaging our pocketbooks and make no mistake, they are on both sides and they're main goal is to confuse the hell out of you- and they do it well.
I have a feeling that all this finger pointing, hate, anger, and screaming is just to divert us from what is really going on- the systematic big pimping of the USA, and we take our bitch-slaps with a closed mouth, because "people have no choice".
Americans are scared. Lets see, we have Al qaeda, we have our current economic meltdown, Iran, South Korea, global warming and 2012 coming fast, we have baseball players taking steroids, cyber bullies, a tea party and most of all A BLACK PRESIDENT! HEAD FOR ZE HILLS!
Americans are scared and confused because we are kept that way- whats good for you today causes cancer tomorrow.
You know who else was scared, confused, angry and fulla hate due due to poor economic conditions? The Germans- and in 1933 the National Socialist Party took control of Deutschland.

"go about your work now, and leave the driving to us"

At 10/06/2010 11:21:00 PM, Blogger Dan said...

Thrasher - any one can cherry pick quotes to suit their agenda. You don't think I could find a quote from some far leftist supporting my view? Of course. There's idiots in every apple cart.

Stop painting with broad strokes. You can't have it both ways. That's all I'm saying.

Again - if conservatives are all racist, white, money counters, then leftists are all either looking for a handout or making a living playing the race card.

If you're going to typecast, let's do both sides.

At 10/07/2010 12:24:00 AM, Blogger Dan said...


For the record here on TW, I'm not sure who the Dan is that's written all the posts, as far as I can remember, since we've gone here on TW to signing in, I've been the only one who has been signing in as Dan. I just logged on here to check in and found a new Dan (or fake Dan) however you refer to him, its not old Dan. While we're on the subject I can't help though but give my two cents on the topic ... I did not read the article in the Washington Post but would agree with the following 1) Neil, as usual, has put his finger on the pulse of the country, its an 'angry world'. (I'm having a weird de ja vu, like we've all had a similar discourse on TW a few months, or a year ago, but can't remember exactly when). 2. The Tea Party is the expression of that extreme anger and its a scary thing... as much as I'm down on Washington these days, both parties actually, some of the Tea party candidates are downright scary. The fact they've won primaries is frightening and the fact some of them might actually win and have a say in our government shows us we're in bad shape as a country, but why be cynical it won't get us anywhere.

Interestingly, Neil says in 'angry world', "everything is gonna be alright"...

3. Similar to the Tyson debate, we all need to seriously stop with the partisan agenda and support good ideas and doing good. Neil's an example, not just with the Tyson thing, but with his whole Reagan experience. I'm not raising it to start a new debate here, but the point is, Neil's always been an independent thinker and I admire that. I think even conservatives who are intellectually honest should acknowledge that some of the Teaparty crowd is seriously bad news.

As for new Dan or fake Dan, who are you anyway? I think Thrasher has shown a tolerance for disagreement if its reasoned, but have some courage and conviction and choose your own login please.


At 10/07/2010 04:32:00 AM, Blogger doc said...

(old)Dan.....I truly sympathise with you regarding someone taking your identity and smearing your brings back bad memories..although I can't believe the "system"..can actually allow someone to log in with an identical registered blog name.
when I had the same experience they registered in an uppercase "D" so i could see that to be possible..but not identical like your blog name..something has obviously gotten through the 'thrash barrier team"...hopefully it can be rectified before accusations and assumptions are unfairly thrown at you too..good luck

sincerely registered doc ( in lower case)

At 10/07/2010 05:31:00 AM, Blogger Jill said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

At 10/07/2010 05:45:00 AM, Blogger Jill said...

As someone who lives in England I just want to say I totally agree with everything Thos said about our wonderful `socialist` National Health Service. We pay our National Insurance contributions and our taxes but, as Thos says, all treatment is free at the point of delivery, from the cradle to the grave. I grew up with this system and have no first-hand experience of any other but I totally support this principal. To me the way a country organises itself to treat it`s sick, its old and its dying is the benchmark of how fair, how humane, and how compassionate that society is. Yes, there are waiting lists for non-urgent cases and of course you can always hear `scare stories` but going by my own experience and that of my friends and relatives (including my 87 yr old mother) I am so grateful for our health system. I say this with all due respect to those who don`t share this viewpoint.

At 10/07/2010 05:51:00 AM, Blogger Jill said...

Thos and Steve Lucas I meant to say - sorry , I keep losing my comment!

At 10/07/2010 07:21:00 AM, Blogger Dan said...

I have taken't anyone's name. My name is Dan Cooper. When I log in with my Google account to post, that's what it automatically uses.

I'm not creating a separate e-mail to post here. I've read for years and rarely post.

I'm not trying to smear your credibility, so lighten up. Dan is a pretty common name.

At 10/07/2010 08:39:00 AM, Blogger doc said...

"New Dan", if you are genuine(which I'm sure you are) you have every right and in my eyes and are welcome to visit the wheat and express your views like everybody else.
Duplication of one's blog name under the system that we visit the wheat,surprises me given all the flak that occurred during the "Thrash Rebellion"...

My words to "old Dan" of having one's credibility smeared was merely an expression of circumstance...please forgive my choice of words regarding your authenticity..and lets hope the problem can be rectified easily to avoid confusion of posters, hastily..over to you Thrash.


At 10/07/2010 08:57:00 AM, Blogger Jonathan said...

I do love the passion all around here, no doubt.

Doc - I don't know - I had to lay low after August - someone was posting as me saying crazy stuff, but let's not revisit that again.

Damn it I just wish that America had a genuine leader who espoused the traditions and values that made the country what it is (or used to be). I'm 37 and can't say that we've had a real leader since I've been paying attention to national and world politics.

The media's greatest power is their power to ignore. And they have certainly done more than enough ignoring the current President's past before he ever came onto the national scene.

Funny how we knew every single thing about Joe the Plumber within 24 hours of him daring to confront our Dear Leader on the campaign trail in 2008. We now know every single thing about Christine O'Donnel up in Delaware within 24 hours of her winning the Republican primary.

Yet strangely I must have missed all those 60 Minutes stories about Obama sitting in a racist hateful anti-American church in Chicago for over twenty years. Hmm. I know I just didn't see all the Washington Post stories about his college thesis and his grades, etc. Hmm.

The Justice Department ignoring blatant and obvious voter intimidation in Philadelphia in 2008 - the case dropped by the racist known as Eric Holder.

Bribing Senators and Congressman to vote for an unconstitutional health care bill.

Soon the interest on the national debt will eclipse total GDP. Nice work there Obama.


'Lookin' for a Leader' - a true leader.

At 10/07/2010 09:52:00 AM, Blogger SONY said...

I wrote about this on July 4th 2002.

We got freedom of speech
We got freedom to preach
Got my brother
Standin' beside me
We got freedom to love
Got the Lord up above
Got my brother
Standin' beside me

We got freedom for war
Freedom for hate
stand beside me
Got lady liberty tall
We got the Golden Gate
Got my brother
Standin' beside me

We believe
All men are born the same
Rights to Life
Pursuit of gain
We believe
All men are born the same
(other versus)
We got scandalous priests
We got squaws and chiefs
Got my brother
Standin' beside me
We got corporate cheats
We got villains and thieves
Got my brother
Standin' beside me.....

We got a total array
Of issues today
Got my brother
Standin' beside me
We got a battle to wage
For tomorrow I'll pray
brother stand beside me
brother stand beside me
brother stand beside me


one other statment I remember..from Bruce Cockburn
'the trouble with normal is it only gets worse'

At 10/07/2010 11:54:00 AM, Blogger Matthew Lintzenich said...

Hm, it appears we're suffering from Oppositionally Replicated Dan Syndrome here. lol

I say, all Dans are welcome!

I think there's another Matt around here somewhere, too. He's probably a complete fascist too. heh heh

@ Shittyhorse - RIGHT ON, MAN. IMO, you hit the nail on the head with your assessment. Scary indeed.

At 10/07/2010 02:27:00 PM, Blogger JimDC821 said...

I find it amazing how often ordinary people are so easily hoodwinked and snow-jobbed to believe a load of fear-mongering hate-speak that they wind up advocating and voting against their own best interests. Case in point is the current fiscal deficit and tax breaks for the uber-wealthy, you know, those folks who have outsourced all the good jobs to China and live off the stock dividends - they would have us believe through their tea party fear mongers that rolling back the tax cuts on the top 5% (and thereby address a huge gap in our government's finances) is tantamount to a tax increase on EVERYBODY. So,
all Joe Schmo hears is the buzz phrase "tax increases" and buys into it hook, line and sinker. What a bunch of hooey... so, the anger comes and people take positions that aren't based on their own self interest. Liberals are basically disgusted to see this taking place and become frustrated with the incredulity of it all.
"It starts when you're always afraid, step out of line, the men come to take you away.."


At 10/07/2010 02:56:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Matt - please describe what a fiscal communist is. I think we all know how well communism works and what it does to Ordinary People - are you advocating that?

Peace and Love (Lennon's good-bye)

At 10/07/2010 03:48:00 PM, Blogger Dan said...

Nobody has the right to tell me how much money is too much. According to the government, if you make $250 K per year, you "have enough money."

Which is total BS. For example - try going to college for four years on student loans, then another two years to get a master's degree in computer engineering. Now picture all those student loans, with a wife and three kids, while working and living in Palo Alto, Calif. $250 K per year doesn't go as far now does it? And that's with one credit card, pinching pennies and being a total cheapskate.

Nobody has the right to tell me that I 'have enough money' because they don't know what my expenses are, and they don't have to save for my children's future. Those are all things that only I do.

But hey - I make good money so it only makes sense that I pay more taxes for the entitlements of others. To hell with my bills and savings, right?

What I should've done when my wife and I were making a combined $60 K per year was buy a $500 K house, so the administration would "forgive" part of my mortgage.

All of those responsible people that lived within their means, paid their bills on time and were responsible were complete idiots!!!

At 10/07/2010 03:51:00 PM, Blogger Dan said...

And Jim, when you raises taxes on the wealthy - you raise costs on everybody. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

When the wealthy that own businesses and corporations have to pay out more, they take in more to even out the difference. That results in price increases in a plethora or goods and services which effects all of us.

At 10/07/2010 04:18:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Liberals are NEVER judged on the results of their social and/or economc programs - only their intentions.

Social Security = bankrupt
Medicare = bankrupt
Subprime mortgages = housing/financial collapse in 2008

Gee what will happen when the health care disaster takes full effect?

Wake up liberals and just try to objectively look at the real world results of all the billions wasted in the name of "social justice" and "economic justice".

America was founded on the firm belief of the INDIVIDUAL - not the COLLECTIVE.

At 10/07/2010 05:20:00 PM, Blogger Dan said...

This is the old Dan, after this post I'm going to try to change my name to 'Dan1'

At 10/07/2010 05:27:00 PM, Blogger Dan1 said...

Testing, Testing

By the way Doc, thanks for the words of support, I wrote a similar post for you during the rebellion but it was like post 168 and never made it in print.


At 10/07/2010 10:36:00 PM, Blogger liverust said...

@Jonathan. Re-read my own Post...didn't find the word "Free" anywhere. Is this the assumption you've made along with assuming I have no idea what some of our Tax Money goes to? Interesting that. Again, I walk into a Doctors Office or even an Emergency Room at any Hospital, get treated for whatever ails me no matter what it may be, show my Health Care Card and leave taken care of. You? Had the C5/C6 Vertebra Fused in my neck. Nary a Bill in sight. Worth the Taxes I pay? Are you kidding me??

At 10/08/2010 07:55:00 AM, Blogger Jonathan said...

@Liverust - Thanks for your input. Down here, I want to pay for my own health care - not be taken care of by a nanny government or have to pay for anyone else's. It's called self-reliance.

And I DO believe in a safety net for those who fall ill and cannot afford the care that they need. That's not what The Moron/Narcissist-in-Chief rammed through Congress this past March.

At 10/08/2010 01:00:00 PM, Blogger Jonathan said...

Thrasher where are you? You bailed out here on the conversation that you started.

Again - where SPECIFICALLY is there any proof that the Tea Party is full of racists and bigots as claimed by the likes of Richard Cohen and the rest of the liberal media?

I guess you're just buying into the stereotype that has been spread far and wide since the Tea Party really took off in early 2009. I've laid out my case in numerous posts above. You've responded with platitudes.

Oh well - let's get back to loving Neil Young, please?

At 10/08/2010 03:24:00 PM, Blogger doc said...

Geez Johnathan..thats about the most apolitical,intelligent thing you've said all post!..yeah..lets get back to Neil..there's plenty of other sites where you can debate this shit!..BORING!!
p,s stop leavin' ya tea bags in the sink!!

luv doc (tongue firmly implanted in cheek,walking on shaky ground! lol)

At 10/08/2010 03:49:00 PM, Blogger doc said...

p.s...please don't start me on the medical system!!



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