Yonder Stands The Sinner: Here We Go Again
So Neil Young announces another concert tour for Canada this Spring. Someone tagged it the "Oh Canada '09 Tour". We like that. ;)
Of course this brings out the loonies right on cue.
Let's start with good ol' Anonymous who manages to cram all the canards into a single comment:
all big arenas.same tour, big $,hocket [SIC] arenas= boring already.
Play some small venues again and I'll cough up the bucks...... but for another hockey arena show, forget it Neil.Not for the kinda $ you're asking these days.
So, let's see.
Big arenas? Smackdown #1:
"The Essar Centre in Sault Ste. Marie holds at most 4,000 for a concert. It is in no way a 'big arena'. Saw Bob Dylan there in November, very intimate."
Same tour? Pumped Up responds:
How does anyone know it's the same tour???
Did you see the setlist?"
(Like folks in Saskatoon, Kelowna, and Lethbridge would care anyway since Neil has probably never played those cities before?)
Price complaints? Hmm. $75 for GA is a very fair deal we can say. Basically, you can get a front row spot. We don't know about the opening band(s) yet. We'll probably get 3+ hour show. Like we said before, anyone who complains about that value is out of their mind or cheap or stupid or all of the above.
So why do we bother? Because we don't like folks who come here and spread misinformation. Period.
But the blowback goes on. The whole thread on pushing back the Neil Young is washed up meme generated quite a ferocious reaction similar to previous announcements that Neil is up to something like an album or tour.
We posted a response on all that which precipated another wave accusing us of blind faith. But we persevere here at TW.
From a comment on Those New Songs: Falling From Above by stringman:
I know this is a fan site and all opinions are just that, opinions... well here is one more...
Neil Young is an artist that I don't think will ever be washed up. Neil gives when he wants to give and lays low when that is what he wants to do.
Though i don't love everything he puts out, in that, you wont find me taking a puff and putting any Neil record on the head phones after a long day. Maybe people need to open their mind a tad as to what they are expecting from every song and record. I see any one song and or record as insignificant to the bigger picture of the man's career and dedication to allowing the muse tell him where to go.
Do you like every bit of your favorite comedian or every movie that your director puts out? that would be highly unrealistic. In the Shakey book Neil said something to the effect of wanting to put out the "good and the bad". To me, that is a true artist who is laying all on the line..showing the peaks and valleys, and the transitions.
I was at the Worcester show in December when he did 6 new tunes. You will not get yet another rendition of Cortez like the one that night if Neil wasn't feeling inspired..the inspiration was more likely tapped from his new material then from the love of playing Cortez for the 300 time. i would rather hear an Neil play what he WANTS to play (even if it didn't do it for me) then have him go on autopilot to please the greatest hits fan.i watched many of those "fans" walk out near the end of Greendale and screwed themselves not knowing they were gonna get what they wanted after Neil did what HE wanted.
Keep writing "WASHED UP" music Neil..20 more years of anything from Neil is better then no Neil at all.
From a comment on Be On My Side, I'll Be On Your Side: The Myth of Washed Up Neil by Pinto (or Flounder):
"I just found this quote in a new biography of Stephen King, who is another of my cultural touchstones (and if that brands me as hopelessly lowbrow, I'll accept the label with honor.) King says:'The worst advice I've ever received is 'Don't listen to the critics.' I think that you should, because sometimes they're telling you that something is broken that you can fix. If you stick your head in the sand, you won't have to hear any bad news and you won't have to change what you're doing. But if you listen, sometimes you can get rid of a bad habit. Hey, none of us like critics, but if they're all saying something's a piece of shit, they're right.'"
From a comment on Who's Really Washed Up? by Not Above Suspicion:
Personal taste is, well, personal. If you absolutely hate a song now then you are unlikely ever to love it.
Someone else who may simply be underwhelmed on initial exposure may grow to love it.
Although, I do believe it is possible to make a case that one song is superior to another based on something more than, "I like this one but dislike that one," I'm not persuaded one can label one song great and another terrible without injecting a large measure of personal bias.
There's nothing wrong with personal bias. It would be dull, drab world without it, but with something as subjective as music or songwriting appreciation we should temper our remarks with acknowledgment that our opinion is but one opinion.
That someone else finds more or less merit in a song or performance than do I doesn't mean his opinion is baseless because of his greater or lesser devotion to the artist.
Are people who are fanatical supporters of a guy more likely to like a particular piece of his than those who are not? Obviously, yes.
That, however, may have less to due with slavish sycophancy than with actually liking the piece more on its perceived merits because something about the artist obviously appeals or the person would not be a huge fan.
Neil has a few albums and numerous songs I don't care for at all. I don't jump to the conclusion that people like them would claim to love anything he did just because we have differing opinions of those works.
They may well have a lesser opinion than me of other works which I like.
I like FITR. I also liked Don't Spook the Horse and T-Bone. I can understand others considering them tossed off trivialities, but to me that's kind of missing the point that he's having fun tossing off trivialities.
If you really appreciate Neil, you learn not to take him more seriously than he takes himself.
--Not Above Suspicion
So the beat goes on.
by thrasher@PermaLink: 2/25/2009 07:17:00 PM
27 comments
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27 Comments:
One thing this Long tour brings to mind is something that I hope I am completely wrong about.
Is this Neil's last big Tour?
Like I said, I sure hope I am wrong but does anybody else get that sinking kind of feeling?
With People from Neil's Camp actually seeing and participating in this Forum, you have to wonder if the negative stuff doesn't leave Neil feeling this will be it.
Fingers crossed Mr. Young keeps giving us whatever he has to give us for many, many years to come.
LIVE RUST
"The Essar Centre in Sault Ste. Marie holds at most 4,000 "
Try 6100.
And Neil doesnt give shit what anyone thinks about this discussion(?) .He's greedy at this point and will take every penny he can get.Thats clear.
I'll pass on Neil this time.For that money I can have great seats for 3 or 4 other shows...... Paid $ 55 for Lucinda Williams 1st row.
And she;s not starving and is playing small theatres. Sure Neil can charge/make more than Lucindam but it shows me how greedy he has gotten ! Neils last tour he charged $ 270 for best seats in MSG- a 20,000 seat arena.That tells me it's a crock of shit.
If he did this in the 60's and 70's
he'd be banned as a sell out.
Hey, anyone know how much $$ Neil makes per show ?
From Shakey, quoting Neil, pg 668 ..." You know what that tour was good for? It was good for me. It wasn't good for anybody else.
It was good for me to realize how completely fxxxin' out of touch with the audience I was. I went out there and played all new stuff - songs that really meant somethin' to me - and they were still lokin' at fifteen, twenty years ago, even though they were teenagers. These young people who wanted me to do my hits. Wanted me to do Ragged Glory, wanted me to do 'RITFW'. They wanted me to get out there, get real intense. They didn't understand that I don't always do that.
They didn't get what they wanted - but I got what I wanted.
Because I went out and did the songs and got in touch with what its like to play and communicate to an audience just with guitar, with songs they don't know that well. Thats really where it lives. To get out there with new songs that no one knows and make them known, make them hear them. That's the challenge"
Neil is like a freshly baked apple pie, when you first bite into it, its hot and crusty, it might turn you off to the rest of the pie. But if you be patient and let the pie cool and settle.. it tastes so fucking good. Every now and then you might taste a sour apple but overall that pie is better than sex. I've gone through ups and downs with Neil's catalog, I have hated some of his songs, and entire albums, mostly Sleeps With Angels. It just annoyed me entirely, I saw the album cover and cringed. Now after listening to it, really focusing on it, its my favorite album of his. To be a Neil Young fan, you have to be patient and actually understand why he does certain things. He isn't Lil fuckin Wayne in the fact that he picks up a guitar to drive the crowd wild. He would do it without the crowd. So all of yall that just can't stand every move he makes can please just shut the fuck up.. it really pisses me off every time I come to my favorite site.. thrashers wheat... that I have to look at a new blog about how critics and so called fans are bitching about something whether it be ticket prices, new material, the archives, etc. Just love everything he does! Or don't say anything at all, I'm sick of it, and I think I speak for most real and serious Young fans when I say this. He won't fuck you over.
well put, Spanky-J!
Hey all:)
I'll give my two cents again...
Always talking about how steep the prices are and the famous mgm 250 or something and on and on... Know what? The 250 dollar seats weren't the only ones. Let's say that the price is 100 dollars (which the average actually isn't). That's 70 EUR (i come from Slovenija). And that is not that much! Compare Madonna (average 80 eur, best seats 330 eur or 500 eur - and that is former Yugoslavia), Tina Turner (average 140 EUR, best 300 EUR), Oasis (average 80 EUR) ... Springsteen (range from 60 to 120 EUR), and so on and so on. I can conclude that a concert experience will cost you about 70 EUR (if you get a good deal and so on), so if you like the man go see him. If you don't, then well, don't go see him. No matter how much you pay, you don't own the performer! Understand that! It's your decision to go and it's his decision what to play.
I am sorry too that the concert prices are bigger and bigger but the talk about selling out, about greediness and so on is...well it is what it is. Whining. Stop effin blaming everything around yourself for your situation. Have a grip on your life. You decide. not anybody else. Complaining just shows that you gave your power of decision to someone else. and you don't have to.
Jure
Pre-sale tickets still available for 80% of the shows.That should tell you something.If ticket prices were reasonable, pre-sale would be finished in a few hours.
Thats it folks, dont buy tickets at crazy prices and next time they'll be reasonable.
Loved that analogy!
I like pie... pie for preening ... pie for strength ... pie at Park Cafe down the road past the taco stand under the Big Sky ... mmmm ... mmm.... mmm.
Lucinda Williams is a music goddess and at $55.00 that was a deal. She's got some miles on her for sure, but not as much as Neil Young.
He has been touring every year since the early 70s with a few off here and there building a solid following ever since.
The ticket scalpers ruined it, I agree. Everyone wants to make a buck.
It's a shame.
For the record, I saw one of the concert ticket pricelists and there were several prices - top price was 175 Canadian dollars plus service charges (about 140 bucks). That's a ton, especially in this economy and these aren't club shows. I love Neil and don't want to rag on him, but I won't defend this or encourage him or anyone else to charge this much. I missed Neil shows in my area recently because I can't afford his prices and I WON'T pay those prices - I don't think we should encourage the industry as a whole - and I mean especially LIVEMASTER, who runs things around the world, in this regard. Neil criticizes them in Greendale, but he does it in their venues. He barely has a choice, but I'd like to see some of the more high profile artists go out on a limb and try to avoid LIVE NATION. Either way, I want to see prices come down and to do my part, I stay home from overpriced shows and spend that money on the little artists, who need our support. I encourage all of you, if you'd like, to do the same.
Hello all;
A question - given Neil's famous "ain't singin' for Pepsi.." stance would you -
-rather he sticks with it and pay more for tickets, or
-take the damn Pepsi money and pay less for tickets?
I don't have a side in this one, I'm just wondering.
(also, referencing a past thread - Thrasher - if you can get ad dollars I think you should do so. This is way too good a site to worry about whether or not someone might get upset if they see a condom ad that offends their delicate sensibilities.)
"'The Essar Centre in Sault Ste. Marie holds at most 4,000 '
Try 6100."
For a centre stage event. This will not be a centre stage event.
It depends on how they set it up, but it will most definitely be similar to the Bob Dylan show that I was at, and they list capacity for these types of shows at:
4,923 - End-Stage Concert
3,143 - Middle-Stage Concert
From the looks of the seating chart, it will be an "End-Stage Concert." Either way the original point stands....it will NOT be a "big arena" because the arena is NOT BIG. It is dwarfed even by arenas like the one in London. So no, it is not a big arena, I've been inside it many times.
What are you expecting, him to play your neighbourhood pub? Like it or not, a 4-5,000 seat facility is a small venue for an artist like Neil Young.
Anyone complaining about prices, I have a few simple questions -- if your boss offered you a raise would you turn it down? If you worked your tail off for 40 years, took lots of financial risk, and had a chance to make some money in the later part of your career would you walk away from it? Would you accept compensation well below your peers if you worked 2x as hard and performed much better? If you ran a small business with employees that had been loyal to you for decades would you lower prices even if it meant giving those employees less pay? If you had two severely handicapped children who need expensive care for the rest of their lives would you not try to set up a trust fund for their well being if you could? If your primary source of long term income (in this case record sales) started disappearing because people were stealing your product (illegal downloads) would you not try to offset your lost income by raising prices somewhere else? What makes someone think they are more entitled to the money than Neil? When fans can't afford a ticket that's unfortunate but that's their issue, not Neil's. Finally, when Neil is offering $75 gen admin. tickets to get basically front row at MSG any complaint about high ticket prices is disingenuous.
Hey Thrasher,
I'm not very computer literate so I appologize in advance for posting anonymously, but I don't think that the "Neil charges too much" or "Neil's new songs aren't good" arguments are really relevant on your site anymore. Both sides have been presented numerous times and the arguments being presented today are no different than the ones presented in the summer of '07 when his latest tour began.
I find your site to be the BEST place on the internet and elsewhere for new info and interesting disscussions on Neil Young, but none of this stuff about ticket prices or Neil not being good anymore is new and it's definitely not interesting.
Keep up the great work, and save your bandwidth by leaving the old hashed over arguments to somebody else.
-Winterlong
I could understand charging a crazy amount of money for tickets if there was an elaborate set up behind him, à la The Rolling Stones. Fireworks, giant screens, multi-level stages, fire-breathing lizards etc.... But what does Neil have? A painter and some oil drums?
-Izzy
Winterlong,
Thanks! I hear you on that.
Believe me, this sort of thing is the last thing I want to deal with.
But it comes up so often, so vigorously, & so viciously.
If folks would take the time to knock it down when it comes up then I wouldn't have to deal with it.
But this thread went perfect.
The straw man was setup. 2/25/2009 09:06:00 PM comes along with his Neil/Lucinda analogy ( I luv Lu but she's so Neil). Then 2/26/2009 12:25:00 PM just hammers it. Good job!
So folks reading this, take down those spreading false assertions (I'm not talking about opinions b/c we can agree to disagree over facts, but facts are facts).
Rock on!
t
Neil,
I hope you don't read some of this negative shit.
Do what you do because you want to do it..........that is the mark of a true artist. Lucina Williams...give me a fuckin' break!!
Maybe Canada is still in the 1950's. No wonder you left !!
album cover at amazon and it ain't pretty
Before the idiots start coming out of the closet..........Lucinda Williams.
Doh
I love the comparisons to prices paid in the 1970s to prices paid today.
Yep, dollar value is the exact same as well!
Well, if you take the price of tickets from any year in the 70's and then apply the cost of living adjustment for each year after until the present, what you will find is that NEIL is charging double-triple what ticket prices would be adjusting for inflation.
In other words, yes prices go up, but NEIL is realy fucking people with the high ticket prices........and dont blah blah blah about GA tickets.Thats not the issue dummies.I'm talking the highest price SEATS.He continues to fuck everyone yet alot of you want to find any angle possible to feel cool with it all becasue its Neil and you feel sooooooo loyal to this guy you will defend anything he does at any foolish and silly way possible.
The tickets prices genreally fund the $10 million year end bonus he pays himself and the boys to keep pace with f@@#$sticks at Wachovia, Chase, BoA, Chrysler, Ford, Congress......etc. And they didn't put out any hits last year.
There's a bailout coming but it's not for YOU!
sony
You know, I just can't believe that we're still having this discussion of questioning Neil's motives, or the initial effect of anything he does or says. Yes, I am a Neil freak. Yes, I am wired to like anything he does. Yes, I am intolerant of short sighted opinions which don't take everything into account. But speaking as someone who has dissected the subject for 40 years now, I'm sorry, Neil is Neil, and if you don't get that you probably never will. Spotting a pretender from a mile away is as simple as reading the comments which usually start out something like: "I'm a Neil Young fan, but..." You can't be a true fan of Neil Young and question his motivation. I'm sorry, you can't. You can’t even be a critic and question his motivation. Do I have the ability to read Neil’s thoughts? No, but I’ll stake my own integrity on what I’ve just stated. You don’t have to like what he does, or agree with what he is saying- even assuming you can figure out what he is saying, which in the context of some of these blog posts is a real leap. Does this mean he's perfect, that he doesn't make mistakes, or miss the mark now and then? Of course not. That's what you get from an artist who doesn't work with a net, and that's what lukewarm fans just don't understand. Besides, in many instances the role of provocateur is simply missed altogether. Many times you don't know what role Neil is adopting, or for what purpose. In these instances he's usually looking for a reaction from people who are otherwise lost in playing with their toys, and need to be provoked to some semblance of critical thinking. Just check out his neutral response to critical and supportive questions alike at the Déjà vu movie press conference.
Look, I understand the reaction some people have listening to some of Neil's stuff for the first time. I hated Tonight's The Night when I first heard it. I didn't get a lot of things over the years when I first heard them. As recently as Chrome Dreams II, it just clanked when I first heard it. It made me uncomfortable. Fallin' Off The Face Of The Earth from Prairie Wind was painful at first. But you know what, I learned a long time ago that if I listened to something I didn't like right away over and over and over, that I would not only eventually see the genius in it but that I would end up really liking it. I took to heart the intent of Living With War, and the Ohio like immediacy of the recording, but also took a pass on the musicality of it. Frankly, I thought it was sloppy, a one off recording that I theoretically appreciated but couldn't really listen to real well. Recently though, I pulled it out and kept it in the CD player for a few weeks, and am now blown away by the power of it on all fronts. Other posts have said it much better than me, but suffice to say, you dismiss things that you think you don't like at your own peril. If you don't understand this, it's time to move on to another artist who has the ability to calculate your taste and never take the chance of disappointing you.
Trust me, I appreciate that it is not a good thing to walk in lock step, and that it is wrong to simply slap someone down who dares to question whether or not the emperor is running around in his birthday suit, let alone speak it out loud. It's o.k. to feel this way, but I would simply tell you this: when it comes to Neil, please do yourself and everyone else a favor, and refrain from voicing your opinion before you've had a chance to fully digest what Neil is trying to do, both in terms of meaning and musical execution. You may find to your great surprise that your initial reaction was misplaced, in part or in whole. And for God's sake, refrain from commenting on tours and albums which you haven't even heard yet. I mean, give me a break.
I think Thrasher is great, and has its collective heart in the right place, which basically amounts to reveling in the sheer joy of everything Neil represents. But these blogs are so disheartening, and akin to the blogs I have checked out in other places. They seem to attract a smaller but significant minority view which is invariably mean spirited, ignorant, illiterate, ill-informed, and distracting. The positive bloggers get caught up with the negativity (the pot said to the kettle), which of course is what these "trolls" are after to begin with. I just don't have room for it anymore, and plan to confine myself to the news and feature pieces, like the excellent memorial to Dewey Martin, and the Squires remembrance I just read.
I think the lion’s share of Neil fans feel the same way. We have long since chucked the notion of "good" and "bad" that the detractors want to focus on- including those second tier "I like Neil Young, but..." fans. If the critics want to put the time in and hear what we're saying, based on long experience and the tangible proof represented by Neil's career, great, but I'm just not gonna sweat it anymore.
Keep up the good work, Thrasher.
Greg M
At 2/27/2009 06:58:00 AM,
Your comment isn't logical ... the bottom line is that Neil is selling $75 GA tickets at the FRONT of the show ... and those tickets did not sell out in 1 minute, in fact there was a pre-order for fans ... Given the cost of putting on a show today in places like MSG with union labor, security, ect ... $75 is a STEAL, trust me, if you aren't willing to pay $75 today to see Neil front row if you come early, then you are not a fan period. The high priced tickets are for the fat cats who want a seat ... but that's a CHOICE that people can make ... When any serious fan can get the best view for $75 there's nothing to complain about, Nothing. Comparing the rise in ticket prices vs. inflation is silly really ... are you not going to send your children (or your self) to college because tuition has outpaced inflation for 30 years straight? Guess what, the cost of putting on a concert has increased faster than inflation too ... plus Neil's band is grown up, these folks have families and children, their expenses have gone up they need to be paid more ... guess what - the cost of movies have outpaced inflation, the cost of pro sports tickets has outpaced inflation, the cost of health care has outpaced inflation -- are you arguing with your local hospital or doctor? Has your local football team made 50 yard line tickets available for their top fans at an 80% discount? Has your local opera made best tickets available at an 80% dicount? Has your doctor made the most convenient appointment slots available at an 80% discount? Has your financial advisor, the one who managed to make you money, provided his top of the line service to you at an 80% discount, has your auto mechanic agreed to give you an 80% discount because you dig his work? NO. So get a life and find something else to do other than making silly comments that are illogical.
So what has kept pace with inflation genius ? Accordig to you , nothing. then thats not the inflation rate I guess.
Becasue you like to stand in a tight crowd where you lose your place if you step away , thats fine. But everyone doesnt like what you like.Most people like a seat.And close up seats at $ 200 or more is sick.
when Neil started this tour end of '07, some of the ticketmaster auctions went for $ 700 a ticket.
Tell me thats cool ? what happened to the fans getting the best seats ? We used to wait overnight for tickets to get them.Now only the super rich can get those kind of seats.Yes, Seats.
2/27/2009 03:16:00 PM,
Your comments really don't deserve a response, especially in light of your comments calling people dummies and then me 'genious'. Which is ironic given the quality of your comments, but ...
First, if you dig into the data you'll find (surprise) that the govenment's inflation data is understated ... Second, electronics (computers, appliances, ect ...) are one example of something that has not only lagged inflation but has declined in price over time ... other things that have lagged inflation include basic food products, the cost of life insurance, steel and metals, ect.... As for your wanting a 'great seat' for a cheap price, go see the next up and coming rock legend who is 25 and on their way up and I'm sure you'll get a good seat for $35 ... as for Neil he's paid his dues, if you're not satisfied with the GA section, no problem, pay up or or stay home ... and be greatful that Neil is generous enough to provide a lower priced option in the best real estate ... either way you have no right to complain.
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