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Monday, August 24, 2009

NNC: What Every Person In The World Should Know About The United States and Torture

NNC: What every American should be made to learn about the IG Torture Report - Glenn Greenwald -


At 8/25/2009 11:12:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's NNC?

And why is this on here?

At 8/25/2009 11:38:00 AM, Blogger thrasher said...

NNC = No Neil Content

This link is here because, as Greenwald writes on U.S. torture:

To those blithely dismissing all of this as things that don't seem particularly bothersome, I'd say two things:

(1) The fact that we are not really bothered any more by taking helpless detainees in our custody and (a) threatening to blow their brains out, torture them with drills, rape their mothers, and murder their children; (b) choking them until they pass out; (c) pouring water down their throats to drown them; (d) hanging them by their arms until their shoulders are dislocated; (e) blowing smoke in their face until they vomit; (f) putting them in diapers, dousing them with cold water, and leaving them on a concrete floor to induce hypothermia; and (g) beating them with the butt of a rifle -- all things that we have always condemend as "torture" and which our laws explicitly criminalize as felonies ("torture means. . . the threat of imminent death; or the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering . . .") -- reveals better than all the words in the world could how degraded, barbaric and depraved a society becomes when it lifts the taboo on torturing captives.

(2) As I wrote rather clearly, numerous detainees died in U.S. custody, often as a direct result of our "interrogation methods." Those who doubt that can read the details here and here. Those claiming there was no physical harm are simply lying -- death qualifies as "physical harm" -- and those who oppose prosecutions are advocating that the people responsible literally be allowed to get away with murder.

Finally, as for the title of this post: it was just a way of expressing the view that Americans who want to justify or endorse the torture we engaged in should be required to know what was actually done -- not hide behind the comforting myth that "all we did was pour some water down the noses of 3 bad guys"; I wasn't trying to propose a new law compelling that every citizen read the IG Report.

At 8/25/2009 04:11:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

When it's your relative that gets beheaded, or is forced to sit in a plane turned into a bomb, or must jump out of a high rise to avoid being burned to death only to die hitting the ground-you may think diffrently about methods used on animals/sub humans/terrorists. Justice is a game and Obama's chief justice is only playing a political game. Were they right with this type of torture? I think not. However, believe at your own peril that the folks in charge now wouldn't do something just as bad or worse. Lemmings, you are following a wolf!

At 8/25/2009 04:37:00 PM, Anonymous dr dip said...

Sorry Thrash, I thought this was a Neil Young blog site.

If ya wanna go off on some tangent I suggest you go find an appropropriate forum. Bloggers have been known to be "deleted" from this site for such "Off topic" comments.

Luv Hypocritical Dip (TIC)

At 8/25/2009 06:53:00 PM, Blogger Phil Kola said...

There's some who feel abortion is a form of torture - it certainly isn't humane and at least one person doesn't leave the operating room alive. Even Neil has made that point, though remains strangely ambivalent about abortion.

So, while there's no way I'm going to defend the Bush Administration recklessness, Obama's Administration, vis a vis such baby slicer enthusiasts as Kathleen Sibelius, is no less corrupt and amoral.

Let me put it this way Thrash - ever work in the south side of Chicago from where "O" felt "called?" It's quite a stew of corruption and, as exemplified by sharks like David Axelrod and Rahm Emmanuel, the entire country is now being subject to this crap.

So if you really want to open this blog up to discussions about torture and the failings of our politicians, I hope you're honest enough to defend "Hope and Change" on a day when the disingenuous deficit projections have shot into the stratosphere. And while "O" and Michelle bask on Cape Cod, there's no sign the 'stimulus' has helped anyone expect democratic party advocacy groups like A.C.O.R.N.

Haven't you learned from Neil not to trust idealouges on either side?

At 8/25/2009 08:26:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is disappointing that this type of material would appear on Thrasher's Wheat. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Neil Young and is merely an attempt to peddle the contributor's political views.

There is a reason that this type of information, presented in this type of slanted manner, has not caught the broader attention of the general public. That is because the general public has the basic common sense and fair-mindedness to understand that the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented. There are lives at stake on both sides of the equation. If you can't understand this complexity, then your opinion won't be given much credence.

Big Old Rig

At 8/25/2009 08:33:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thought I just clicked on the drudge report!We need to keep this great country safe and if that means getting info out of high level killers then so be it.These people are not pussies,and if we become pussies...well you know the rest
If neil came out and endorsed torture this story would not be on the website.


At 8/25/2009 09:47:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

my post must have been...never mind

At 8/26/2009 03:22:00 AM, Blogger Greg Mantho said...

I admit that at first, I wondered about the presence of this subject matter on a Neil Young appreciation site, but then I considered the crucial importance, largely ignored to our own peril, of the initiation of officially sanctioned torture in this country. In the spirit of Neil haphazardness that finds an acoustic song followed by an electric one, or the appearance of a Rockabilly album in the canon of an otherwise predominately rock and acoustic discography, who am I to argue with Thrashers choice to prod my conscience about something of at least as great importance as the absence of this song or that from Archives?

You know, for those of you pinned up against a tree, unable to see the forest, as Americans we used to be able to hold our heads up high that we were a country that didn’t stoop to torture and base intimidation. In one felled swoop we have pissed all that down the drain, and it is left to history to gauge our moral integrity, or lack thereof. I take to heart the notion that we have been confronted with an unparalleled specter of “terrorism” within our borders, and that we must all find a way to move forward in a way that honors the victims, but I also take to heart the words of Harry Truman (o.k., no moral giant), who stated words to the effect that “keeping someone in the gutter means that you have to get down there in it with them.” Congratulations America, you’re in the gutter.

As a final word, and my history is sloppy on the details, the president of Italy when challenged to employ the use of torture with captured Red Brigade terrorists, as a way of bringing to justice the murderers of Aldo Moro (back in the 70’s, 80’s?), had this to say: “Italy can survive the death of Aldo Moro. It can not survive the introduction of torture.” We had all better collectively hope and pray that America can survive this- and there are myriad cracks in the seams beginning to appear, and thank Thrasher for a seemingly inappropriate reminder of the need to wake up, a reminder that some may need more than others.

Lenny Bruce once said "You need that mad man to stand up there, and tell you when you're blowing it." It's o.k. to be a mad man every now and then, Thrasher.

At 8/26/2009 08:44:00 AM, Anonymous SONY said...

Thrasher -

"It's your thing
do whatcha wanna do
I can't tell ya
who to sock it to

It's your thiiinnngggg
do whatcha wanna do"

At 8/26/2009 10:47:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm really appalled folks are justifying torture.

Suppose it was a US soldier that was your husband?

And I'm sad to see Neil Young fans can justify torture.

love & only love,

At 8/26/2009 02:59:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it interesting that whenever this subject comes up there are always some people who say we have to get them before they get us, we should use whatever means necessary, etc., conveniently forgetting that all these acts of terrorism are a *response* to U.S. violence. 9/11 itself was a *response* (however criminal and unjustified) to years of the U.S. and its allies bombing people in the Middle East. The difference is that when one of "us" is tortured or killed it becomes headline news and CNN reveals their names and interviews their families and says what a tragedy it is and how can this happen. When U.S. soldiers (or unmanned drones) kill scores of innocent civilians in far off countries we don't see the death and destruction and the weeping faces of the families. But the people there don't forget it and eventually some of them retaliate and we label these people terrorists. Remember: as long as the U.S. bombs other countries and tortures their people with impunity, it will never be secure.


At 8/26/2009 03:25:00 PM, Blogger Tweck9 said...

Yo Anonymous @ 4:11 (3rd comment):

You justify amoral acts of human suffering as a response to amoral acts of human suffering.

Remember the old addage, "2 wrongs don't make a right?"

Or: "Do unto others as you would HAVE THEM do unto you?"

The only thing you will do by following violence with violence is create more violence.

So if you want to live in a world of amorality, sanctioned human suffering and endless violence, then your narrow-minded and myopic ability to create justifications for these illegal, amoral, downright EVIL acts is exactly the path to that kind of world.

Kindness will save humanity.

Killing people only causes people to die, and torturing them only causes them to hate you.

It's one thing to love your country, and another entirely to blind yourself to the evil acts it commits by making simplistic justifications.

Props to Thrasher for using his blog to spread these necessary messages.

At 8/26/2009 03:38:00 PM, Anonymous dr dip said...

Thrash, my dear friend? You have opened up a big can of worms!..
I tried to warn ya!

Nostradamus Dip

At 8/26/2009 04:01:00 PM, Anonymous SONY said...

I think I'll strap my 11 year old son up with some dynamite and send him out to market. Sounds logical given my mindset that it will hurt the infidels and my beautiful boy will go to the 7th heaven. I think I'll teach this at the schools.

Are you f#$%ckin' kiddin'me?

Evil in any form is inhumane. Them/US. No matter. Hate is everything you think it is.

At 8/26/2009 04:25:00 PM, Anonymous Thomas Paine said...

An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

At 8/26/2009 05:36:00 PM, Blogger Tweck9 said...

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted Anon 4:11's position based on his/her first paragraph.

The statement "Were they right with this type of torture? I think not." does seem to indicate that Anon is against the torture.

However, my statement was in response to Anon's initial suggestion that "when it is your relative who...etc.", which is the simplistic justification for believing in torture that many American's employ during the argument, and that is basically what I was responding to.

So anon, my apologies if I misinterpreted you as supporting torture when you clearly indicate that you think it was wrong.

I am impassioned to a fault. Okay, I'll shut up now.

At 8/26/2009 09:28:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thrash, please wake up. If you (and Neil for that matter) are so concerned about human rights, start by protesting the abuses that occur daily at the Cook County jail. Clearly they didn't concern your Savior when he 'represented' Chicago and I'm guessing he's not losing any sleep in Cape Cod now over absues there far worse than the CIA might have perpetrated (with arguably understandable reasons) Ot do you think prospective terrorist desrve better treatment than you fellow citizens.

Oh yeah, check this out too:
'Setting the Citizens Up to Die"

Bush was bad, but not THIS bad. Please wake up. get a clue. Look beyond 'Hope and Change' rhetoric to what the crushing deficit will do to our children's lives.

Really, wake up

At 8/27/2009 08:11:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Torture is wrong. Period. What others are doing or not doing makes no difference.

And in any case, abundant evidence shows that torture is unlikely to lead to actionable intelligence anyway - so those ticking time bomb scenarios really don't make much sense.

Thanks, Thrasher. These issues are important. And it's your blog. Write whatever you want.


At 8/30/2009 05:00:00 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

From the liberal hang wringing to the eye for an eye brigade - you people who live reletively 'torture' free lives really believe the smoke and mirrors you create around yourselves to feel free.
In my view we are insanely lucky to live in a society in which, if you pay your taxes and have a little bit of luck, you can live a great life, free of repression or suppression.
For most folks who live on this planet, 'torture' and the threat of 'torture' is a normal part of life (and death) - from China to Tibet, from Africa, the Americas and Europe. Actually no-one is safe from state torture, religious torture and the disgusting and barbaric treatment of animals in our world.
At least the 'right' is a little more honest about the realities. The left wallow in self loathing, blaming every ill on institutions that 'protect' some of us from the horror and conveniently remaining blind to the truth - similarly - you had to be able to afford to be a hippy!
Thomas Hobbs: 'life is nasty brutish and short'
Respect your foe or he will kill you.
Any liberal who eats factory farmed meat and poultry, veal etc. is a cunt.
NY is very Orwellian in that he appears to understand reality more than most.

At 8/31/2009 04:48:00 PM, Blogger K and C Dennis said...

During the 2008 presidential campaign, when folks were touting the Democratic "peace" candidate over the Republican, I asked if any of those supporting the "hope and change" nominee had actually read his issues platform on the web.

In plain language on that site, it was promised that many of the core policy protocols of the Bush Administration - continuing the Middle East wars, continuing domestic spying, continuing to draw a veil of secrecy over the intelligence community - would go on. Hope and change?

At that point, I would quote Neil Young: somehow the Dems make all that look attractive; looks like a trade for a "kinder, gentler machine gun hand."


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