Is Blu-Ray Dead Already? Not So Fast Yet
Ever since the Neil Young Archives were announced as being available only on Blu-Ray, controversy has swirled. Even ardent, long time, die-hard supporters have been dismayed by the Blu-Ray technology choice.
The latest round of Blu-Ray fear and loathing was prompted by articles with provocative titles like "Is Blu-ray the new Laserdisc?" and "Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony!" by ZD Net's Robin Harris:
"Blu-ray is in a death spiral. 12 months from now Blu-ray will be a videophile niche, not a mass market product.
With only a 4% share of US movie disc sales and HD download capability arriving, the Blu-ray disc Association (BDA) is still smoking dope. Even $150 Blu-ray players won’t save it."
Industry expert Bill Hunt at Digital Bits does the smackdown:
"But let's get real here. Blu-ray is NOT dead. It's not close to death. It's not even remotely sick or ailing. Saying otherwise is simply a clever ploy to get a LOT of people to read your columns. Look folks, Blu-ray is still essentially a NEW format to most people. This is the format's FIRST YEAR of unopposed exposure to consumers - the first year it hasn't been embroiled in a bitter format dispute with HD-DVD. The standard DVD format didn't begin to really take off until well over a year after its Divx pay-per-view nemesis finally died. It's worth noting that my prediction has ALWAYS been that Blu-ray and DVD would co-exist for many years, and that Blu-ray would gradually increase its market share over time. If I had to guess, I think the mix a few years from now is going to be 50% DVD, 30-40% Blu-ray and some smaller percentage of downloading. Blu-ray isn't going to replace DVD, the single most successful format in the history of consumer electronics, and anyone who thinks otherwise is out to lunch. But Blu-ray's future is plenty bright, folks."
But it seems that Blu-Ray news gets even worse when Wilco says Save your money, don't buy our Blu-ray!. Don't, says the band, buy a new Blu-ray edition of its 2002 documentary "I Am Trying to Break Your Heart." The band released a statement saying:
"We're unsure as to the rationale for the release, given that the film was shot in beautiful grainy B&W and has a stereo-only audio track... there is, in our opinion, not much to be gained by spending the extra cash. It's your money... and in this case you should probably hang onto it."
In response to Wilco's pushback on Blu-Ray, Plexifilm co-founder Gary Hustwit says, the quality of the film is significantly greater in Blu-ray.
"If you've got a film that was shot on super-16mm, like the Wilco film, a high-definition transfer on Blu-ray disc is going to look better than a standard-definition transfer compressed to DVD. Watching the Blu-ray disc is the closest you can get to actually sitting in a theater and watching the original film.... But we want to release our films in the best available format, and Blu-ray is just better than DVD, period."
When news was announced last month that Amazon was taking Pre-Orders for The Archives Volume 1, reaction was pretty swift on a number of fronts. First, not only was Amazon.com listing a Blu-Ray version
but a regular DVD version
as well.This alternate DVD offering seemed to ameliorate some of those alienated by what had been believed to be a Blu-Ray only option.
Naturally, all this Blu-Ray stuff causes confusion as eddy ecco asked:
I was wonderin'----would any of you know--can you play a blu Ray disc on a regular DVD until one gets a Blu-Ray machine?
The short answer is no. Here's a more detailed answer:
"All Blu-ray players are backward compatible to play DVDs. The Sony PS3 is considered to be the best BD player and it also has an ethernet port for Internet connection. In addition, the Sony PS3 is continually having updates, which are downloadable from the Internet for free. Many other players don't have this ability and are stuck with whatever firmware ships with the player.
Connecting to the Internet with the Archives Blu-ray set enables the owner to download (for free) new content whenever Neil makes it available. This could be music and video downloads, more archival materials, tour info and special offers.
The regular DVD edition is interactive as much as the Fillmore or Massey Hall DVDS were.
The major differences between the BD and DVD archive editions are that the BD version has 24/192 audio, a HD picture (which means EVERYTHING looks better), the ability to navigate thru the archives while the music plays, Blu-ray style pop up menus and advanced navigation.
But there still remains considerable confusion over the Blu-Ray format and what fans (and everyone else) who is hard pressed in these financially challenging times should do when considering purchases ranging towards $1,000 for Volume 1, a player, and other system upgrades necessary to take advantage of the format. Doug comments here and here with some helpful advice on considering the Blu-Ray format.
So what are you thinking of doing when The Archives is released?
As for us here at Thrasher's Wheat? From everything that we've read, it would seem that the Sony PlayStation is the way to go because of the internet connectivity. We've been doing some Blu-ray research and found this Amazon page helpful in comparing various players' specifications.
But what ever we do, we'll probably wait until we actually see that the Archives has been released seeing as how we have gotten a little excited and hopeful over the years only to be a bit surprised when the release was delayed.
OTOH, just maybe The Archives will be released before Time Fades Away afterall???
But hey, when we see Neil next month, thinking about the Archives will probably be the last thing on our minds.
Also, see:
- Archives Q & A Session is Now Open
- The Archives: Burned with Both Feet on the Ground
- The Archives Turns Fans Blu
by thrasher@PermaLink: 11/16/2008 06:16:00 PM
123 comments
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Neil and the Blu-Rays; at least he won't get sued.
Buyers (and artists) beware -- from the Wall Street Journal --
HONG KONG -- Movie pirates are going after Blu-ray, using a technological twist that makes their illicit copies both cheap to make and tough for consumers to spot.
Pirates are taking advantage of the fact that many viewers can't tell the difference between Hollywood's new high-definition, higher-priced Blu-ray movie format and a bootleg format -- called AVCHD -- that's a grade lower: AVCHD uses 720 horizontal lines of resolution instead of Blu-ray's 1,080, but still offers a sharper picture than an ordinary DVD on high-definition television sets.
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Geoffrey A. Fowler/The Wall Street Journal
Pirated Blu-ray disks seized by Chinese authorities.
The movies are pulled off Blu-ray discs using easily available software. Because of the lower resolution, they can be put on ordinary blank DVDs instead of more costly blank Blu-ray discs. That makes them quite profitable for pirates to make, warns the Motion Picture Association, the industry group that battles piracy on behalf of the studios owned by Walt Disney Co., Viacom Inc., Sony Corp., News Corp., Time Warner Inc., and General Electric Co.
"We are concerned and are assigning priority to this issue," said Mike Ellis, the Asia-Pacific managing director for the MPA.
Some eBay Inc. merchants are warning customers to look out for counterfeit Blu-ray discs, or ordinary DVDs passed off as Blu-rays. One tip-off: Real Blu-ray discs attract fingerprints more easily than the pirated discs.
The industry took notice last month when authorities raided a big stash of the new pirated discs in China, which is often at the leading edge of piracy trends. Authorities in the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen last month unearthed a pirated warehouse collection with 800 of the discs, with titles ranging from "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" to "Transformers." The pirates had packaged them in Blu-ray's recognizable blue boxes, including holograms to try to make them look like the real thing.
"Pirated DVDs from this region...have been exported all over the world in the last few years. These syndicates are very quick to spot market opportunities," said Mr. Ellis.
The MPA estimates that within the next six months the high-definition discs could account for 10% of $224 million that its member companies lose from piracy in China. While a legitimate Blu-ray discs costs about $30, a pirated Chinese disc goes for as little as $7.
The new piracy threat comes as the industry tries to push Blu-ray to compensate for softening sales of regular DVDs. Entertainment companies hope consumers will upgrade their libraries to the newer discs. In the four weeks ended Oct. 26, Blu-ray discs accounted for 6% of the home-video market, according to Nielsen VideoScan. Retailers and electronics companies recently cut prices on Blu-ray players to spur adoption.
The pirate discs haven't yet appeared outside of Asia. But the industry worries they could find a market in places with lower penetration of broadband Internet access. In those markets, downloading high-definition video files -- legitimate or illegitimate -- can be lengthy and cumbersome.
"When we created the specifications for Blu-ray, we were very serious about trying to stem the tide of pirate discs regardless of where they were in the world," said Andy Parsons, a senior vice president at Pioneer Electronics Inc.'s Home Entertainment Group and the U.S. chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association Promotions Committee.
The association built two layers of copyright protection into their discs. One layer unique to Blu-ray, called BD+, checks to make sure that the disc isn't being played somewhere it shouldn't be. "To make a pirated Blu-ray disc is pretty difficult," said Mr. Parsons.
Pirates use software to pull high-definition video off Blu-ray discs. One software company, Slysoft Inc., claims to have cracked Blu-ray's protection software last year and sells a program to extract Blu-ray movies called AnyDVD HD for the equivalent of about $100. Slysoft said in a statement in March that it enabled "backup security copies of Blu-ray discs." The U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act bans DVD copying, but Slysoft has said its software is legal in Antigua and Barbuda, the Caribbean nation where it is based.
Mr. Parsons said he was aware of Slysoft's claim but declined to comment on it. Slysoft didn't respond to requests for comment.
The technical protections built into Blu-ray can be changed by encoding a software update onto new Blu-ray discs. But those updates, too, will be cracked, said Peer van Heuen, head of SlySoft's high-definition technologies, in an earlier press release. "The worst-case scenario then is our boss locks us up with only bread and water in the company dungeon for three months until we are successful again," he said.
back in May, the PS3 might have been the best option for the Archives. Now, that there are several BR Profile 2.0 players on the market for the same price, is there any reason to still be thinking the PS3 is the best? Feedback appreciated. Thanks
I have had Blu-Ray for over 1 year already, and it is worth every penny if you want the best quality.
that said, the price for the Blu-ray archives set has got to be the most outrageous, absurd joke of ANY blu-ray release EVER.
I mean a$500 msrp!!
that is completely INSANE times 1000000.
Neil should be appalled at this, and tell the company putting this out NO FRIGGIN WAY!
Don't waste your $$ on the dvd version.
the blu-ray version is the ONLY way to go for sure.
but the price MUST come down significantly imo.
when all is said and done, this looks to be a total disaster as regards this price structure.
really sad after such an epic wait for this.
I will NEVER pay even the low amazon price for this blu-ray set.
sorry Neil.
you have failed your fans with this absurd pricing no matter how incredible this set may be.
First of all, this is a really great post by Thrasher.
The Archives release looks to be the most realistic that it has been in.....19 years.
As fans and buyers we have many questions and part of that is because we are dealing with some heavy technology, a fairly new format and a product that is said to be pushing the Blu-ray and DVD formats to their extremes.
Thrasher poses a good question here in as much as- who wants the Blu-ray , who thinks DVD is good enough..and basically who are hold outs for a CD or digital download......maybe even getting the Archives for free thru crappy rips and hijacks (shame on you Veg and his kind).
I will tell all of you with the greatest of sincerity and honesty that the Blu-ray version of the Archives is far and beyond superior to the DVD set in audio quality, picture quality and provides the user a much more satisfying experience than the DVD set.
Having tested both the DVD the Blu-ray sets extensively, I have a hard time going back to the DVD set. The difference is THAT huge.
For those paying any attention to the WSJ article about pirates and Blu-ray, I say this to you:
1- do you support pirates and bootleggers?
2- do you want to have a less than desired visual and audio experience because you aren't willing to support an artist whose work you care about?
3- the Archives set is not a Hollywood movie and has not been created in the same manner. In fact advanced methods, not used before, have gone into the creation of this set. There is a great chance that any pirated copy of the Archives simply won't work.
4- Why would you want to support pirates and bootleggers who can only offer crap?
Between now and the release of the Archives, look here to learn when www.neilyoung.com releases some real information and facts about the Archives sets, the formats, the players and choices that buyers have.
No one wants confusion and everyone wants to make a choice that works for them.
We have all waited a long time for this...and that brings questions and controversy. Answers are coming and so is a release date.
To respond to IRR- yes there are many new profile 2.0 players coming to market. Tests are underway to determine how well they operate with the Archives set and results are forthcoming. In the meantime for playability, price point, features and compatibility via updates, the PS3 remains the flagship player.
Feel free to ask questions on this forum.
How is $300 "INSANE" for 10 cutting edge Blu-ray discs, a book + whatever else there is in this box set?
MSRP means nothing...what counts is what a product actually sells for.
Thanks for the post Thrasher. And many thanks to Neil's Test Pilot for joining TW and the Blu-Ray discussion. I can imagine it could be hard to talk about the technical stuff only since you know all the content and don't share that part with us. But thanks anyway.
Are the Archives still coming with printed matter? Everybody keeps talking about a book that comes with the Archives. But that information comes from the old news...?
I do have my doubt on the future of Blu-Ray. Not that I see any problems for know. I believe in the Blu-Ray version because NY made the whole Archives project as a Blu-Ray project. He didn't make it as a CD or DVD. (How many times do I have to write this down.) Anyway my concerns on Blu-Ray are more towards the future instead of this sole release. The Archives will be five or six volumes and were will technology be by the time volume 6 will be released? I am even worried about my favourite volume two (CD2, Homegrown, TFA). I am pretty sure is doesn't take another 19 years but... still... you never know. In a couple of years NO discs or disc format will be the future.
Money. People/fans that still are complaining about the price should also understand that the Archives set is not a Hollywood movie. Hollywood didn't have to pay Joel Bernstein for the last 19 years. It's a Redwood project.
Okay, if the sound of the Archives will be as good as Chrome Dreams 2 on vinyl... I don't know... I think you won't see me again on this site... I will be blown away to outer space for the rest of my life.
Because Sound Matters
Okay, one more. I have a question for Neil's Test Pilot.
Since I spent almost all my time at my office I would like to enjoy the Archives over here. In my office an amplifier, cd player, record player, a G4 and the latest MacPro, two screens and some great speakers are all connected. If the Blu-Ray comes in will I be able to watch the movie part on my screen and connect the sound directle to my amplifier? Does it work at all?
What's up for me? Because Sound Matters
blue ray is for idiots
What's rediculous is that Neil is insisting on making this a 10-disk set when the content can easily fit on several less blu-ray disks. Clearly he's trying to maximize his profit otherwise this would be a 2 to 4 disk set for a quarter of the price.
What's really going to piss me off is when I find out that the set is 10 BD-25s (25GB disks) and not 10 BD-50s (50GB disks). If that's the case, this should clearly be at most a 5 disk set...nothing like sticking it to the consumers in a time like this.
Blu-Ray and any other technology 'upgrade' (itouch, i-pod version XYZ, etc) is stalled by the economy. If my dvd player is working perfectly fine and yet I'm worried about job security, why would I invest in $500-700 for a non-essential item?
Neil's timing is extraordinarily terrible. For someone I love & admire, it seems like a slap in the face. This man canceled the LA show (reportedly as NOT to cross a picket line), yet, goes to Sun Microsystems, who the very next day, layoffs 4000- 6000 employees.
Timing.
Neil, is it the moon?
A few answers for you:
1- yes there is a book in the set...over 200 pages with tons to look at while you listen to the Archives.
2- To think that this set could fit onto several Blu-ray s discs is way off the mark. Most of the 10 discs are 50 GB discs, the remainder are 25 GB. Discs of this size are needed to accommodate the hi rez music, video and graphics. The sheer volume of archival materials dictates this number and storage capacity of discs.
3- As you may know already one of the reasons that this set hasn't been released in the past is because technology had not caught up with the vision how to present the archives materials. The Blu-ray format is the first to offer many of the desired features and playability.
Blu-ray is here now and will continue to be in the forseeable future, but we would all be naive to think that formats won't eventually change...this is a tech society and is ever evolving.
The great popularity of PS3, Xbox360 and Wii show a bit of the direction consumer taste is heading. Buyers want games, movies, HD picture and sound, Internet connectivity and interactivity. All 3 of these platforms offer these features and the Archives set on Blu-ray does as well with 24/192 audio and 1080 HD, BD-Live and fully interactive discs.
For "Beacause Sound Matters office listener":
Yes you can listen to and watch the Archives in your office with either the DVD set or the Blu-ray set, given that you have a player that supports one of the formats in the room.
Yes, you can connect the video output to your screen and send the audiio thru your amp to your speakers.
I am currently doing that in my office with both a DVD player and a PS3 connected to a nice flat screen and some high end speaks thru a power amp.
One of the great added features of the Blu-ray version of the Archives set is BD-Live functionality.
With BD-Live, one can download for FREE new archives materials as Neil releases them. Some of these downloads will be rare and unreleased tracks, film or video clips, recently unearthed documents, photos, manuscripts, special offer and more.
These materials will only be made available to Blu-ray owners of the Archives and are stored on the hard drive of your Blu-ray player after they download. The only way these files can be accessed is when an authorized Archives disc is inserted in the player. These files remain in your system forever or until you decide to delete them thru the NYA Download Manager.
With BD-Live your Archives set becomes a constantly evolving and interactive collection that grows over time.
Please note that bootlegged or pirated copies of the Archives won't work with BD-Live.
In order to realize this added benefit, choose a Blu-ray player with an ethernet jack...or better yet a PS3 that can connect wirelessly to your WiFi. Keep in mind also that an Internet connection with your player will also allow you to update your player's firmware, as improvements are made and bugs are fixed.
Blu-Ray to DVD is like...
A cheesesteak in Philly vs. a McDonald's cheesesteak
Buffalo Wings in Buffalo vs. Pizza Hut wings
Pizza in New York vs. Dominoes
Patron vs Montezuma tequila
The New York Times vs The National Enquirer
Broadband vs Dial-up
I can go on and on... In this economy, I totally understand not wanting to shell out more money for the archives or more money for a blu-ray player. But my suggestion is that you just start saving and buy both when you can realistically afford it. We've waited this long for the archives already, shouldn't you do it right, even if it means saving up a bit longer? Trust me, if you buy the DVD set and then see the blu-ray one, you will regret you wasted the money. Not that I've seen both, but Blu-Ray is way better and more powerful than DVD. WAY WAY better.
For "why would I invest in $500-700 for a non-essential item?"-
Yes, we live in uncertain times, the economy is in rough shape and the US remains at war. These types of things might make consumer choices difficult and we all feel the pinch. I wonder how it was in 1930 after the great Stock Market crash when Henry Ford was in the midst of rolling out the Model A automobile? Those were also tough times.
That being said, any CD, DVD, record, stereo component, iPod, etc is a non-essential item. It is up to the individual as to what their budget can handle vs their desire list.
If your DVD player is working fine and you are considering buying the Archives set, save your hard earned cash and buy the DVD set.
For some of you readers concerned about shelling out money for the Archives, step back for a moment and look at what you might spend for an evening out at a restaurant or a concert. HOw often are you comfortable with those costs? What do you spend on your vices per month?
The investment in those expenditures pass by in fleeting moments, where as purchases such as DVDs, Blu-ray discs, records or CDs result in an entertainment investment that lasts and can be enjoyed repeated times.
I ask of the writer of the comment that I'm addressing here, when WOULD the timing be right for you to see the Archives released? To read over time the anticipation for this set and then read fans grousing over it now that it is about to be released just doesn't add up.
In closing, how could you ever think there are ties between the fate of a corporate workforce and production of a multimedia set such as this?
Are the tracklists for the Blu-ray and DVD versions the same (minus the proposd BD-Live amterial)?
Yes, the track lists are the same on DVD and Blu-ray sets.
Who is this 'anonymous' that seems to have inside knowledge to NYA?
-Chicago
I'll identify my posts from now on using the handle Test Pilot as coined by another person on the thread, so as to separate me from other "nameless and anonymous writers.
Test Pilot:
If one were to go Blu-Ray but without a tv/web connection how can one receive the updates?
Conversely, why shouldn't there be a personal access code good for a single download made available for dvd purchasers to download to laptops?
What happens to downloads to PSP/BR if machine goes kaput? How is this captured?
Will there be an opportunity to 'test ride' a sample somewhere prior to purchase? Another detailed demo, perhaps? At such a cost, I wouldn't sink $300+ into a component without comparison between Sony vs Denon vs Toshiba, either.
-Chicago
How assured are we that there will really be BD-Live releases? Is there a real plan or is this just a cool idea that may used? I worry because Neil famously has changed his mind soooo many times regarding whether things actually get released.
This really determines how good a Blu-Ray player we might puuchase. This entire endeavour is super expensive and I need a good reason to buy the deluxe Profile 2 player.
I hope the BD-Live stuff really does occur and maybe then we can get some of the obviously missing things like Cinnamon Girl off of Fillmore East or heaven forbid one of the Fillmore Easy acoustic sets.
If you get the PS3, you can play the Archives and also Grand Theft Auto 4. This assures that you will not leave the house for three months.
Ain't paying for Blu-Ray's, aint paying for DVD'S!
I've already paid for the vinyl and the c.d.'s why do i have to pay a third time to hear those songs , makes me look like a joke. I want the unreleased material by itself,i dont need a book with pages of Neil's ineligible handwriting,photo's that i've probaly seen and 'Shakey' cine footage taken by stoned hippy's.
I've been waiting for the archives for over 15 years and now the subject is bogged down in 'which Blu-Ray player should i buy', it's absolutely pathetic. Remember you can listen to music hundreds of times but can only watch video a few times.
As Neil says in the Don't Be Denied documentary 'i only do it for the music' o.k. Neil just give us the music, preferably in an affordable format because sound dosen't really matter that much.
Chicago-Good questions.
Having a BD (Blu-ray) player with Internet connectivity is the only way to get the BD-Live updates and added content.
When one downloads BD-Live content to the drive on a BD player, that content is encrypted and can only be accessed with an official NYA BD disc. For owners of the DVD set, downloads would have to happen from the Web-> computer hard drive. They then become files that can be copied or altered in some way...which is not acceptable. We have no reasonable way or desire at this point to encrypt such files for purchases of the DVD set.
The BD-Live application lives only in the BD domain and brings ongoing added value to that set.
If your BD player dies, those files pass on to the graveyard of decreased data...however simply purchase a replacement player and download all those files again, thus maintaining your entire collection.
Rasputin- as someone who in historical references is painted to be a mad man, you make a lot of sense in your comments.
Test Pilot
In reply to bob themole-
Fear not BD-Live downloads are real and many have been prepared and tested in anticipation of the Archives release date.
In reply to bob themole-
Fear not BD-Live downloads are real and many have been prepared and tested in anticipation of the Archives release date.
in reply to aintithtetruth:
You have every right in the world to not want to duplicate music in your collection and I honor that point of view.
Sadly, the reality here is that you are not going to get just the unreleased songs by themselves...they are only going to be offered as part of this AudioBiography know as NYA Vol.1.
Maybe you have a friend who might invite you over to listen to their set.
Sorry to hear that sound doesn't matter to you that much because it is the ONLY thing that matters with our gang.
Test Pilot:
At one point, there was speculation of a limited number of Archive sets, Blu-Ray or dvd, whether to hype the exclusivity or excited, web gossip.
To your knowledge, if one were to defer purchase in order to save $$$ for the Blu-ray & component, is there any chance of a 'you snooze, you lose' situation with the end result is nothing for the cash-strapped fan?
-Chicago
Experts:
Regarding BD (Blu-ray) player with Internet connectivity, that would mean, additionally, one would require cabel or dish tv system, correct?
What if one hasn't got either, and is getting laptop internet via wifi? Can one then connect through some type of plugs/cable to laptop for the special downloads? And if not, then how does one obtain it?
This is getting ever more expensive as the questions are typed...
Chicago-
I think the best way to field your question is by saying that yes, the Archives sets will be limited in numbers, but not by any unreasonable amount.
Really the popularity with buyers is what will drive availability. If no one wants the Archives, then there will be plenty for a long time. If there is great demand, then the first edition with run out quicker and would-be owners may have a waiting period before another production run goes thru.
If you are are thinking of snoozing, I'd set the alarm clock for some time in the near future or you might increase your chance to lose.
Test Pilot
If the downloads are real and have been tested why aren't they on the initial release of the Archives?Is this another way of screwing fans for more money by pushing them further towards the more expensive Blu-Ray version?Also the Archives has been worked on for 20 years.Surely any worthwhile unreleased music would have been found by now.
in reply to questions to Experts-
No one doesn't need cable TV, Directv, Dish network to use BD-Live.....just an internet connection. the same one that you with your computer. BD-Live has noting to do with television transmissions.
Think of your BD player as a computer (because really it is in some ways). Connect it to the internet exactly how you currently connect your computer...either via an ethernet cable or WiFi.
The only thing extra here that you "may"" need to buy would be an extra ethernet cable that gets connected to your DSL or cable modem.
If you purchase a PS3 player it connects to the Web via either ethernet or WiFi..and you won''t need to buy anything else.
As I type, I'm downloading a group of test BD-Live files via WiFi (PS3) while interacting with you on the Web with my computer.
If you are sucking WiFi off someone else for free, you are basically screwed for a number of reasons and BD-Live won't happen for you.
Most likely if you can't/won't pony up for your own Internet service then you fall into the category of someone who isn't going to buy a Profile 2.0 BD player with Internet functionality.
To you I suggest -Go visit a friend who has their scene together.
Got to go.....my downloads are ready to look at and listen to.
in reply to 11/17/2008 06:24:00 PM
BD-Live is a very cool, forward thinking concept and actually enhances the user experience and adds value to the purchase over time. Rather than having a static collection, you end up with one that only keeps growing.
No one is trying to screw anyone. Why would you ever think that to be the case? That is pretty insulting and uncalled for.
Test Pilot
"If you are sucking WiFi off someone else for free, you are basically screwed for a number of reasons and BD-Live won't happen for you."
Actually, many communities offer it for free: your tax dollars have already paid for the service. No one is screwing or getting screwed...
Before every comment revolves around "getting screwed", my previous comment in regard to WiFi pertained to a scenario where one had a BD player that required a hard wired/ethernet connection to the Web.
In this example, the inability to connect the player to the Web would indeed leave the owner of the player "screwed" out of using their player's BD-Live.
Bravo to communities that offer free WiFi. An owner of a PS3 (that supports wireless internet) could easier tap off that connection.
Test Pilot
Test Pilot - thanks for sharing.
So the big question - is Archives Volume 1 actually done yet (not including BD-Live material) ?
Of course I won't really believe what you say until it's in my hands.
Bob- apart from completing the final testing of the BD discs, I can tell you with great confidence that the Archives are done.
Test Pilot
if people are wondering what Blu-ray player to get I can say that there are 2 choices currently that make the most sense:
1) a PS3
2) the Panasonic model bd-35
(this model is brand new and can be had for as little as $239 at Frys right now)
This player is a 2.0 player which means it has the internet capable connection for the previously discussed bd-live material.
Anyone needing more help understanding Blu-Ray is invited to join us at www.highdefdigest.com where any questions you may have can be answered by lots of very nice and helpful people.
hope to see you there!
Dear Test Pilot -
A PS3 has up to 80G of hard drive.
A new Profile2.0 Standalone would have a slot for a flash drive and some come with a 1G stick. It is not clear to me that you can stick arbitrarily high capacity of flash drive or even a USB hard drive into these standalone players.
With this in mind, can you offer any guidance as to HOW MUCH (Gb) of downloadable material NY has planned to deliver? At 24/192, a 4 Minute Stereo Track would require 165Mb storage space and a 4 minute HiDef Video could take up upwards of 800Gig. I could see those little flash sticks getting filled up mighty fast!
Your Friend-
Charly Brown
Hi Test Pilot,
We really appreciate all of the information you're sharing with us!
Thanks so much for dropping by.
And folks, let's be polite with our inside guest.
Thanks!
Thrasher
To Test Pilot, or anyone else who cares...
I can think of one good reason to get the dvd version over blu ray: ease of copying. And no I don't mean pirating, I mean copying for my own personal use, to put on my mp3 player, listen in the car, etc.
I don't doubt that the best way to experience the archives will be in full quality at home, and I don't blame neil for wanting the highest quality possible, but surely some of this material will be stuff I want to take on the road.
Will there be any features to facilitate fair use copying? Don't bluray disks have a DRM? And even if they don't, most people don't have bluray drives on their computers.
Including a digital download code would be one way to solve this, but I don't see Neil doing that since he is so anti mp3.
To the Archives insider man,
I was wondering what happens if I want the Archives update but my PS3 is not connected to the internet. I can put my USB device into my computer and then walk down stairs and plug it into my PS3 to update it from the PS network. Can I do the same with the Archives updates? Also, will the updates cost anything and will they remain available if i can't download them at first.
Regards,
Matt
Charly Brown- great question.
Profile 2.0 players with USB can support additional storage via flash drives or USB hard drives. Of course the latter can provide much more storage. This goes for the PS3 as well as other players.
We would hope that Neil Young downloads will be only part of your BD-Live experience. Hollywood movie tittles are just starting to have BD-Live and that will be another set of downloads for you to make choices about.
To directly address your question, no the total GB of NYA downloads has not been decided and this is an ongoing project with no finite end in sight.
We have programmed into BD-Live a function that alerts the user when their player's drive is getting full. At that point one can either add additional storage or delete files. This allows the user to clear room on the player that they may have filled up with Kung Fu Panda trailers and High School Musical alternate endings. I f you choose to delete a NYA file, you can always go back and download it at a later date.
Keep in mind that all NYA files on your player or add-on storage devices are encrypted and are only accessible when you have inserted a valid NYA BD disc into your player.
Your concerns about download file size are valid and we have taken that into consideration, along with bandwidth issues and download times.
As of this writing the BD-Live audio files are all DTS HD Master Audio files. This is lossless 24/192 stereo audio and, in our opinion, the best way for us to download hi res audio in a reasonable time, with hi fidelity. Please save your questions about FLAC and such.....we like how DTS handles 24/192.
Our braintrust is working on more advanced download methods, but for now expect DTS HS Master Audio.
Your BD players support this audio format.
thanks for asking,
Test Pilot
Thrasher-
Thank you for your post and for providing this informal forum to the Archives team to answer questions.
As mentioned before, thru communication we can bring understanding and help folks make the choices that work for them.
Test Pilot
Matt-
By Archives updates I'm assuming that you mean BD-Live downloads. As a PS3 owner you will need to connect to the Internet to get these downloads.
It can't be done via a computer and then transferred to your PS3, like a PS3 system firmware update. You can always bring your PS3 upstairs to do your downloads and then reconnect it downstairs. Not ideal, but doable.
The BD-Live downloads are free and don't in general have a window of availability. You could buy the Archives on BD a year from now and have access to download everything that is offered between now and then...missing out on nothing.
One caveat here- from time to time there may be special offers for BD owners delivered via BD-Live. They will be offered for a limited time, but will not be downloads....simply offers of some nature.
Use your imagination.....what special offers could you dig seeing on your monitor? ...and don't say a $200 off coupon for the Archives set. :-)
back to work...Test Pilot
Thanks for the info Test Pilot
- Matt
"No one is trying to screw anyone. Why would you ever think that to be the case? That is pretty insulting and uncalled for.
Test Pilot"
You did seem to imply that there are updates already planned to be distributed. How do those who spend $349.99 on the DVD version get to listen to those extra tracks?
Also, the "scroll" seemed to indicate that there are album tracks that are will not be included on NYA. Is this the case? I would be surprised that Neil would put so much effort into presenting his music at 192/24 with a fancy video interface, and then leave us with old our circa 1990 44/16 CD transfers of certain songs (especially given that there are apparently less than twenty unreleased songs on the whole thing... unless I am wrong [I've been wrong before and I'll be there again]).
Hello Mr Greg McGarvey
What some are are calling updates are BD-Live downloads and part of the BD release. These downloads are only available to owners of the the BD set with a BD-Live capable player and Internet access.
To directly answer your question- those with the DVD set can hear/look at/read these files when they visit someone who owns the BD set and has the downloads.
Our second question will be answered at a later date.
In regard to the scroll...where are these alleged photos? I've heard much about them ,yet no one seems to be able to produce them. Please post them where they can be seen by those reading here. I for one am curious, which version of the scroll was photographed and by who?
Test Pilot
Test Pilot -
The "scroll" was displayed onstage at the Sun Javaone confererence in May. The photos of the scroll come from the Sun website.
http://photos.sun.com/page/2853
If you poke around, multiple good photos can be found in high resolution. You can make out almost all of the tracks from Vol 1 with a little work. We have no idea how accurate it is, but it was the best info we had.
I look forward to a real tracklist on ny.com sometime in the near future.
Bob
I've got a PS3 and have pre-ordered Archives Vol 1 on Blu-Ray from my local supplier. It's a lot of money, but I believe it will be worth it in the long run.
I have my PS3 connected to the internet via an Ethernet cable. I've also got an external 500Gb hard drive connected to the PS3 that I picked up fairly cheap on eBay. I'm also using 'playTV' with it, so the PS3 will be used to record films and tv shows as well, and store them on the hard drive.
I really think the PS3 is the most versatile peice of home technology out there at the moment. It really is a 'home entertainment system' rather than just something to play games on.
If you can afford it, it does make sense to invest in this.
I will ask Test Pilot though, will the other volumes come in reasonably quick succession, do you know? i.e Volume 2 in 2009, volume 3 in 2010 etc...?
in reply to Bob-
Thanks. Yes there is one photo that with some detective work one can make out a few song titles.
I've seen this page of photos before and of course was there when they were shot.
Never did think that these were "the scroll" pics, but now we know what you all have been chatting about for 6 months.
In all fairness and honesty, this isn't a a track listing document, but does contain some track information.
Your desire for a complete track listing has been noted.
Test Pilot & Experts:
I really appreciate the detailed information re: BD, PS#, and the Archives.
I've been on the fence for awhile, but now am tempted to look for a 2nd hand PS3 via Craigslist or somesuch.
1. What is the most basic model, bandwidth-wise, that I should consider? 2. How easy is it to expand memory for a non-tech?
Thanks.
-Chicago
Forgot to tag my name on that last scroll comment...
moving onto Mike M-
I agree with you about the PS3. It is an amazing piece of home entertainment tech and is extremely versatile.
We don't keep pushing the PS3 to the top of the list due to any affiliation with Sony, but rather because it works very well and continually has it's firmware updated.
What's gets me is how can all this functionality get stuffed into the PS3, work well and be easy too navigation thru...at a very competitive price point?
MIke, we don't have an answer for you on the next volumes, but now that the technology supports the vision, future rollouts will be much quicker. There isn't a schedule at this time to share with you.
Test Pilot
Here is the most comprehensive POTENTIAL Track listing for Volume1 based on a bunch of rusties staring at the JavaOne posted photos of "the scroll" and screen caps of the "Archives Preview Video" and Home videos shot at JavaOne and posted to the web.
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/nyarchives/message/189
Neil's camp should take note that we're a bunch of vultures picking at scraps and we're not too bad at it. But no one here stole that PS3 from JavaOne, raided the barn, etc.:-)
Folks-
Today will be the last day we are fielding questions about this post here on Thrasher's forum, but hope you have been getting some useful information and a bit more clarity about the Archives set.
We aren't car salesmen (or salesmen of any sort), but I think a car analogy works well in discussing the Archives sets.
Our luxury, flagship model is the BD edition. It has the most powerful engine, custom trim and high end entertainment packages built in. While the BD is the most expensive model that we offer, it best represents our product and has premier performance and feel.
Consider BD-Live to be the equivalent of getting a lifetime subscription to XM radio, OnStar and mobile Netflix as part of your purchase.
The DVD edition is a base model that has a smaller motor and doesn't handle quite as smooth as the BD. Being a base model, the owner doesn't get the luxury packages that come included with the BD Edition. However, DVD is a finely built piece of work and has been made using the same craftsmen and tooling that the BD uses.
DVD may not be as high end, but it will certainly get you where ya want to go, in comfort and with reliability for years to come.
A number of you aren't interested in buying the Archives series and that's OK. Maybe you are holding out to see if the future will bring the vastly underpowered CD edition.
For years you have been told that the CD is a safe means of transportation, despite it's lack of quality parts and safety features.
A few more of the holdouts would like to strip down the CD edition removing much of the powertrain and suspension....leaving that bumpy, unreliable deathtrap known as the MP3 model. These MP3 chop shops often have untrained mechanics without certification and roll out noisy, thin sounding mods that are unsafe, yet from a distance look like the real deal.
Only you know which edition fits your needs, budget and lifestyle. Our mission isn't to sell on you on one edition vs the other, but to help you make informed choices.
You Do The Math-
Test Pilot
Test Pilot,
Just wanted to say thank you to you and Neil for answering all of our questions. Once again Neil has decided to take things to a revolutionary dimension and we as fans get to enjoy the priviledge of coming along if we so choose. The decades (no pun intended) of being Neil fans have taught us that Neil will almost always force us out of our comfort zones only to realize after the fact how fortunate we were to be open enough to come along for the ride. In this case, as we venture into the world of some hard core technology, thank you for your patience and hand holding as we get our bearings on this new project. As a long time fan, it is a thrill to watch Neil lead us into the unknown once again...
By the way, I wanted to clarify that when I posted the Wall Street Journal article regarding Blu-ray it was to highlight the risks to fans of buying blu-ray discs second hand since they could be pirated.
dan
Thanks again for sharing so much. I think this has helped a lot.
I'm going to make a leap and jump ahead to Volume 2 and just say I hope you'll have learned a lot from Volume 1 and are able to do Volume 2 justice. That is the holy grail for most Neil fans who are willing to spend this kind of money and I hope you folks close to this project for so many years realize how important it is. I look forward to seeing it all laid out properly and to finally hearing Homegrown, Chrome Dreams, The Ducks and everything around it. Neil was amazingly productive during these years and I'm sure it will a fantastic volume.
Thanks,
Bob
Test Pilot-
Better get my last question in quickly. To be frank,the sole reason I have for not wanting to get a PS3 is the reported harddrive and fan noise. I'd guess that about 1/3 to 1/2 of my 24bits of audio would be swamped in the noise, given that I don't have a mega system with isolation chamber! Also, these aren't the greenest of machines. Do you have any technically based thoughts on this? Because Sound Matters! Thanks. LRR
Dan-
A nice evaluation and summary...thanks.
And thanks for the heads up about pirated discs. Some very advance work has gone into the making of the NYA BD discs, and while we aren't trying to draw out or challenge pirates, they aren't going to dealing with a simple Hollywood movie, with basic menu structure and navigation assets if they get their hands on the Archives.
Don't support pirates or bootleggers....they are chumps and rip offs.
Test Pilot
Test Pilot:
I very much appreciate the opportunity to ask questions and hope you make a return to this forum, or others, soon.
With online research into PS3, I have noticed articles declaring the end of backward technology for future models, does this impact the Archives in anyway?
If I start a Facebook Archives page, would you be willing to 'appear' from time to time?
-Chicago
in reply to Bob-
We're right there with ya about Volume 2 and yes we have learned much in the production of Volume 1 that will streamline our future work.
Test Pilot
I will, I'm sure, buy the Cadillac version, because I want to have what Neil thinks is the best, but what I really really really want is just the NEIL YOUNG ARCHIVES iPOD, truly. That's what I want, Neil and Neil Camp Folks, I know you think the quality sucks and I'm sure you are right about that but my music-listening life is all about convenience since most of my life is focussed on keeping the kids and the dogs at least breathing, and I can plug that iPod into headphones or my car or my stereo in 3 seconds and BAM there he is. Won'tcha please make The NEIL YOUNG ARCHIVES iPOD just for me? Pretty please ? : ) Can't wait for The Archives in ANY form, loveandaffectionkaren
Test Pilot! Thanks for all the posts! I was surprised when I returned at my office after being on the road for a day. Great that the book is still coming with the Archives.
I don't get it with the 50 GB and 25 GB discs? Neil mentioned the BD live releases would also be available if unknown material shows up. For example: Somebody finds out about the Archives by the end of next year and remembers he still has this great sound/movie recording from way back. He sends it over to the ranch and Neil likes it. A nice surprise gift for his fans and a good way to use BD live. But what if the 25 GB disc were it fits in the timeframe is full allready? So the question is: Why do you not use the 50 GB discs for all if the story that Neil told us is right?
I have the feeling the BD Live stuff is all pre-programmed... Having said this doesn't feel good. Anyway, I love the man and I love cars.
One more: Will there be a better explanation/inside view/preview of the Archives on the Sugar Mountain DVD disc? I mean something we haven't seen before? Thanks again.
Because Sound Matters
IRR-
Another great question. I can't give you a qualitative answer right now about the dB level of the PS3 machine, but just did a few listening tests for you.
With my entire scene fired up (no fancy Iso racks or anything), my array of firewire hard drives are the noisiest thing in the room. Having them turned off, I can hear the fan on the PS3, which is sitting on top of a rack 3 feet away and almost at ear level...fan faced away from me.
Slightly behind the PS3 is my mac laptop, whose drive becomes the loudest thing in the room, if I bow my head done.
Then I turned on a PC tower that easily became the loudest device in the room. As I shut it off it reminded me one more reason why I hardly use it anymore.
Firing up the PS3 with a BD disc in it, audio system volume set for low with an acoustic song playing, all machine noise in the room fell into the background. At times during navigation I could here the PS3 drive spin up, but no in a distracting way. Turning the volume up, all I could hear was 24/192 audio bliss.
In summary my 80GB PS3 does have a fan and a drive, but once the music starts I don't hear it from 3 feet away.
Test Pilot
Also got an array of firewire drives over here! The new ones do have a better and more silent fan. I even turn off the older ones most of the time. The new MacPro is heaven if you talk about the fan. So, is PS3 a new machine? Are there more silent machines or updates coming soon? PS4? Because Sound Matters
in reply to 1/18/2008 11:29:00 AM
I think that I understand your question, but correct me if I don't.
1-The capacity of a BD disc doesn't have anything to do with BD-Live downloads. These future downloads are not stored on the disc, but rather on the hard drive of your BD player (please see previous comments for explanation).
2- The reason why not all the BD discs are 50 GB is because a 50GB disc is not always needed.
An prime example would be the Fillmore East disc. This disc has a shorter run time, fewer archival galleries and much less overall content compared to other discs. It fits on a 25GB BD disc and bumping that up to a 50GB disc won't improve the quality in any way.
2-BD-Live is not pre-programmed, but a number of downloads have been prepared so that when the Archives are released there is content ready to send out right away. Think about it for a minute- wouldn't it be a drag if you purchased the BD set, hooked up BD-Live and there weren't any downloads for weeks...months? Cheer up, pal.
3-Sugar Mt DVD ? Yes!
Test Pilot
Test Pilot:
To above poster Karen, she makes an interesting comment. Most of the fanbase is more than aware of Neil's quest for perfect sound and disgust for mp3s in particular.
If one purchases the BD collection(s), is there a possibility of highly encrypted audio, downloadable, for those always on the move: soccer moms in mini-vans/job commuters in cars & subways, etc. (ie. ipod)?
It presents options for the best of both worlds.
Again, thank you for this forum.
-Chicago
Chicago-
I'm not hip to the "end of backward technology" articles, but will look into it.
On the Facebook, sorry no...but good luck with that and we support you. I know that some of you are already friends with Lincvolt Continental over at Facebook...thanks.
On that subject-we enjoy interacting with you all here, at Facebook and during our Lincvolt webcast live chats.
We may return here in the future in the coming month, before the Holidays to discuss more about the Archives.
Test Pilot
"To directly answer your question- those with the DVD set can hear/look at/read these files when they visit someone who owns the BD set and has the downloads."
Not to be snarky, but... that is a shame. Where do the rest of us go for those tracks, shady bit torrent sites? I hope there will at least an option to buy FLACs or upgrade DVDs (maybe bundled with a Bridge donation).
Looking forward to the track list information. Honestly, as a long-time Archives cheerleader, I am a little baffled at the current concept. It's not "the complete document," "the good, the bad, and the ugly" like Neil said in 2002 (unless you can confirm that it's not missing album tracks)... yet the price would indicate that it's all that, and perhaps more.
While you're here and taking notes... I submit a request for Rainbow Theatre 1973 show in full (or at least including that stunning "Helpless") as a NYA PS release. Thanks!
Again, jsut getting all my questions in here, while you are here today :-)Assuming a standalone Profile2.0 with a USB Flash drive, onto which I have just downloaded some High-Def Video Goodies from Neil, does USB actually have the bandwidth to deliver the video without burping? I thought you needed at least firewire to do that. I have no idea how much DRAM is in a BD player, because that info is never made public, so I can't infer that the content would "load up" and then play seamlessly. Really appreciate your answering my biggest questions. LRR
Hi Karen of Rustlist fame-
Thanks for your support + interest in the our deluxe model.
At this time our focus and vision remains set on BD and DVD for this Archives release.
I don't think you'll ever see a special NY iPod, but all the interest and desire for content on portable devices is being heard and noted with respect and understanding.
One of our mottos at Shakey Pictures is:
"Quality..Whether You Want It Or Not"
Test Pilot
Thanks a lot for answering my questions! Sorry for misunderstanding the storage place for the BD live updates. Had to read so much this today... Anyway it's clear by now.
So, we get regular updates if we buy the Blu-Ray version! That really rocks!
Can't wait for the Archives preview on Sugar Mountain Live!
Because Sound Matters
Test Pilot:
A link to PS3 80GB rumor:
http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/01/sony-no-comment.html
As far as I can tell, it's about backward technology availability ie. playing PS2 games, etc.
I'm not a gamer, so I could care less. However, it may impact your coding in some regard.
If one is taking NYA future requests, I for one have never seen (video content) original Whitten era Crazy Horse (nor TTN that matter) live footage anywhere. That would be OUTSTANDING!
-Chicago
Hi Greg-
I hear you and can understand your point, but maybe my earlier car analogy might help you understand where we are coming from. If you buy the Deluxe model you get ALL the features. If you purchase the Standard model you don't. The luxury features are built in at the factory and there are no aftermarket add on kits.
It is choice to be made based on preference, budget and lifestyle.
Rainbow Theater 1973...noted and written down. nice pick!
Test Pilot
LOL Test Pilot, that's a good slogan you've got there, but you have to understand that for your biggest fan (ME), our slogan here at CrazyKidsDogsNutsoHouseinConnecticut Central is "I really want to hear X but I have no idea where it is my dog ate it or my kids sat on it and HEEEEEEELP MEEEEEE!" ... Please do not rule out the special NEIL YOUNG ARCHIVES iPOD, it's what everyone listens to, for real. PLUS (and this is a big plus for me, and should be for Neil, since he is so fond of Nature) you can take it with you on a long walk when you go looking for faith on the forest floor or something. : ) Anywho, thanks for listening, you are completely AWESOME to be sharing with us in this way. loveandaffectionkarenofrustlistfame ; )
Oh, and, well, responding to my own post, because that's what I do sometimes ... I just want to add that yes, of course I realize that I can buy the shiny Cadillac Archives and download it onto my own iPod myself, peeps, BUT .. it would be a whole helluva lot easier if I could buy a SPECIAL UNIQUE TOO-COOL-FOR-SCHOOL (because Neil designed it of course it would be) NEIL YOUNG ARCHIVES iPOD, and plus, Test Pilot & Co. you guys would be able to have better control of the sound quality if you created it, yes? I'm just saying ...
In the meantime: don't forget to vote at the top of this page!
I'm going all the way with Blu-Ray, baby! 33% (161 votes)
Looks like the DVD option for me 34% (166 votes)
I'm not sure what I'm going to do 25% (123 votes)
No Archives for me, thank you. 8% (41 votes)
Karen said-
"I just want to add that yes, of course I realize that I can buy the shiny Cadillac Archives and download it onto my own iPod myself, peeps"
No, you can't download either version to iPod without resorting to ripping via a pseudo-illegal manner which your kids may have to help you with. The cadillac Blu-Ray will be very difficult to get to an iPod.
Oh F---, really? Okay, in that case, TEST PILOT LISTEN UP! I am BEGGING YOU! THE NEIL YOUNG ARCHIVES iPOD, loveandaffectionkaren
Test Pilot,
If I have a PC with Blu-ray playback capabilities and an internet connection, will the Archives be fully functional for me including BD-Live?
--PunkDavid
Yo Punk-
Yes, your setup should work fine and be fully functional. Do you know if your BDplayer is Profile 1.0 or Profile 2.0?
Your computer drive will storage the encrypted BD-Live downloads. Make sure that you stay current on firmware updates for your player..that is key.
Please tell us BD player you are using and which software player your PC has. We are testing many players and can add yours to our list.
Test Pilot
music= Mustang by Neil Young and The Squires!
picture= Lincvolt!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz5Lk44VbF8
Test Pilot, Thank you for taking the time to post and answer questions today. I can't wait to get my hands on this! ;)
Peace and love,
Ron
Love And Only Love
Test Pilot
"Yes, your setup should work fine and be fully functional."
What does "fully functional" mean is this case?
Are you also talking about the sound quallity?
Do we get the same sound experience?
Or is the PS3 connected to the amplifier a better option?
I've done some research in the meantime since I am also interested in a Blu-Ray burner. Found this one for my MacPro: MCE 6X Blu-ray
Still have to use BootCamp for the movies?
And then again the sound goes through the Mac...
Because Sound Matters
This comment has been removed by the author.
Perhaps this question has been answered previously here at TW, but I'll take my chances and ask anyhow. Are there still plans to release "slotted" or partial versions of the Archives DVD set for fans to drop in their previously purchased Fillmore and Massey Hall CD/DVD discs?
Thanks for sharing your inside info with us, Test Pilot. Looking forward to the Archives.
Test Pilot,
I actually haven't purchased the BD drive yet, but I bought the computer a few months ago to be Blu-ray (Archives) ready. I'm still shopping for a good deal.
Are there any minimum specs that I should look for when buying? There are drives out there for as little as $90 these days, but I don't want to get a cheapy drive if it won't play the Archives, which has been my primary consideration for the whole machine.
gonna answer my own question. Apparently I often forget there is a thing called USB 2.0. It appears plenty fast for High-Def video delivery....BD datarate ~54Mbps. USB2.0 datarate 320Mbps....and many flash sticks are getting to within 60% of that speed as well....Plenty fast.... LRR
I would just like to echo previous comments that I hope those who choose to buy the Archives (either edition) won't have to fork over the $$$ again if the decision is made to make the content more portable (CD, Mp3, whatever) in the future. After all, we're still getting the quality, "whether we like it or not", right? I think the price of the set would be a little easier for some to swallow if that concern were addressed.
That being said, I am very excited to get my hands on this set and am grateful to Test Pilot for answering everyone's questions today! Thanks! - ckirby
With all the talk of audio fidelity here....
You give options as:
A Cadillac (Blu-ray)
A Pontiac (DVD)
A Saturn (CD)
A scooter (mp3)
Where the hell is this option?:
A Packard (LP)
Can those of us who actually want the music in its true form have an option, not just a representation (albeit a high fidelity one)? Can't we get the unreleased studio songs on a vinyl set? Should be about 2-4 LPs worth, judging from the scrolls. Maybe plus a bonus 7" replica of The Sultan / Aurora?
Test Pilot:
Thank you for providing all this important information about the NYA. I will purchase the Blue-Ray edition but would also like to express my desire for an I-pod usable format.
However my greatest desire is for the 200 gram Classic records. Is this too much to hope for?
Rialb
Will It Be Released In Other Zones
Other Than America And Canada, Which My PS3 Will Not Play Here In Australia
Test Pilot, thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. NYA is quite a complex project (understatement of a lifetime, right?) and it sounds like the release itself is going to be complex as hell, and probably piss off a lot of fans. Having said that, I understand and respect the cause of promoting higher standards for sound.
As for the pricing, though... I just don't get that. (Somewhere, a tiny violin plays a special arrangement of "Kahuna Sunset" just for me!)
Looking forward to track list. Based on the scroll (jeez, we are sounding rather biblical here... heheh), it seems to me that there were a few songs left off, maybe in an attempt to not deem the original LPs redundant. I hope that is not the case. I like the idea of NYA being the whole picture. I trust that there is more to the picture than meets the scroll, though, if that's the word you're giving us.
Having said all that, a box set doesn't mean shit to me compared to the fact that he's still writing and still playing incredible concerts. If you have a minute, tell him some guy in Pennsylvania says thanks for "No Hidden Path." :D
as far as other "regions" for Blu-ray playback there are 3 (denoted A, B, C)
The US and Japan are region A
Europe and Australia and some other countries are Region B
India and China are Region C
depending on the plans of the record company there are 2 possibilities here:
A) that the US North American release will be released "region free" so that it will play on ALL blu-ray players no matter what region you are in.
If the record company chose to in fact make this release "Locked" to region A only then people in other countries outside of region A will have to wait for a region B release to be able to enjoy this set.
(of course there are various hacked players, etc. etc that can defeat the region coding, but that is an entirely other deal)
again, visit www.highdefdigest.com for all the info you will ever need regarding Blu-ray
I'm from Australia as well, so I'm hoping Archives on blu-ray will be released there so I can buy it the day it comes out. If it doesn't then at least I'm seeing Neil live with my Dad in January, which will be great! Hoping he might play Mr Soul and No Hidden Path.
I was the commenter above who pointed out that at least dvd would be easier to rip. I notice there was no response, which I take to mean there will be no (easy) means of copying the bluray edition. This sort of thing pisses me off. DRM or any copy protection is bullshit. If I pay money for something I should be able to copy it to any format I choose. THis is true of a $15 cd, and should be even more true of a $300+ "cadillac" collection. Yeah, I get it, the bluray will sound better. BUt if we pay that much, we deserve to have it BOTH ways, the good version in our living room at home, and the compressed version on portable devices.
Besides that, if the audio format of the dvds is the same 96kHz 24bit linear PCM (ie uncompressed) format that has been used on the performance series dvds, you will never hear the difference between that and the 192kHz 24bit of bluray. Your dog won't hear the difference. I don't doubt the VIDEO quality will be better on bluray, but get real, we're not in it for the video. YOu can actually make a strong argument for CD quality not being good enough, since the 44.1kHz sampling rate doesn't give you that much breathing room between the Nyquist frequency (22.05kHz) and the upper range of human hearing. ANd you need that breathing room for a decent anti-aliasing filter. 96kHz on the other hand, is plenty good enough. 192kHz is more about marketing (bigger numbers must be better right?) than it is any real improvement.
If anyone cares, I'm an electrical engineer with a DSP background, I'm not just talking out my ass here.
I'll be buying the dvd version. I briefly considered shelling out for a bluray player specifically for the archives, but the more I think about it, the more I think its not worth it.
-Nate42
Not sure why everyone's overlooking the obvious. Just get a blu ray player with analog outputs, like the Sony BDP-S550 and play all the disks into your soundcard, just like when you first converted your vinyl collection to CD. It will sound fine, especially since you'll be compressing it to mp3s to take to the gym. Just don't distribute them or post them or sell them Of course, they would be for your own personal use alone....
Hi Nate42-
Glad to hear that you are an electrical engineer who knows what he is talking about and we are happy you have mad a choice to buy the Archives on DVD, but here you are making some assumptions that are wrong.
1- all our production decisions are based on art and music...none on marketing. That is something that suits do at meetings.
2- there are great differences for a listener between 24/96, and 24/192 and much of that experience is dependent on what the playback system is and who is doing the listening.
Thanks again for your support.
last comment to Nate was from moi.
Catching up with LRR-
Yes, USB 2.0 provides adequate data transfer rate and that's a good thing since these players use USB and not firewire.
Test Pilot
Hi Rialb-
Thanks for the request for 200 gram vinyl..it WOULD be the best.
It also would be a massive set of records and most likely not that inexpensive.
Only time will tell...
Catching up with "Because Sound Matters"
My fully functional answer earlier was cut a bit short to workload, but you have brought up a very important point.
Yes, a BD player in recent model computer, with updated firmware should work just fine, but the sticky point is in regard to the playback software and soundcard of your computer.
Most stock computers, either PC or Mac do not support playback of 192k or in most cases 96k audio. 48k is the highest sample rate supported and anything else played gets sample rate converted down to 48K.
I don't have a PC turned on, but here a Mac go to your Audio MIDI setup and you will see that 48k is the highest sample rate.
The answer here (and many who are serious about games,movie playback and audio editing already have this) is an aftermarket soundcard (..and I can hear your groans already). This will increase the computers ability to play back at higher bit and sample rate plus offer a more high end D->A converter (digital to analog) than what came with the computer from the store.
When purchasing a BD player for your computer, keep the above points in mind and understand how your computer's preferences and programs function.
Test Pilot
@ lrr
The only thing that's a bigger pain in the ass than ripping DVD audio to mp3s is having to manually cut up an analog feed into individual tracks. I've converted a lot of vinyl to digital, and that's the worst part by far.
I will be buying the Blu-ray version, so I'm not ashamed to say that I will probably be acquiring an illegal download of flac or mp3 sourced from the DVDs for use in my mp3 player.
If I were Neil, I would have included V0 VBR mp3s for all of the music on one of the discs to make life easier for his fans. As for the files being unsecured, sorry, I've got no sympathy for the record industry on that one. An mp3 should be free, being that the quality is shit and all, right? It should be an advertisement for teh actual high quality product, just like allowing radio play is.
One of the reasons I love Neil is that he is so forward thinking. Another reason I love Neil is because he can also be a totally backward Luddite. With this project we get to see the best (and worst) of both worlds.
In reply to questions about "Regions"-
NYA BD will be region free and playable throughout the world (how's that for RITFW??)
So for our commenter from Australia, "no worries, mate" Have fun with your Dad at the show and show him a good time.
good news about the region free status on this!
I'll let the members of www.highdefdigest.com know.
thanks again
Now that I've answered the Regions question, I'm outta here folks.
From the NYA team, thank you for all the questions and comments. Your desires and concerns have been noted and will taken under consideration.
Look for your next Archives preview on the upcoming Sugar Mountain- Live At Canterbury House 1968 DVD.
This release is number 00 in the NYA Performance Series and comes packaged as a CD/DVD set.
Listeners who prefer to have 90% less audio information than on a CD can purchase Sugar Mountain on iTunes and listen to mp3 files. Sorry... you don't get the Archives preview.
The DVD offers the usual Shakey Pictures/Redwood Digital 24/96 audio standard and as Nate24 has noted, it is much better than CD quality. In fact the DVD has 256 times the resolution of a CD and an improved dynamic range of 48dB.
You most likely have a DVD player, so give it a shot, have a listening party and talk amongst yourselves. People still get together together to listen to music, don't they?
We believe in the power of music and feel strongly that Sound Matters. That is why we put so much energy into what we create and offer to the world.
Thanks for taking the trip with us.
We'll be back in the future to discuss more about the past...and how we are bringing it to the present.
Test Pilot
ps- a quick shout out to Liver Rust and our friends north of the border. See ya at the next Lincvolt webcast.
shameless plug= www.lincvolt.com
Thanks so much Test....and let neil know thanks for the music and the art. I read through the whole postings here.....and that is the bottom line, you know. The archives are Neil's music and art....and i have made it a point to just take what he sees fit to give us and be thankful that his art remains true!!
Yeah, it is gonna be a tight squeeze to get the Blu-ray archives and player, but that is my plan. I wish i would be able to get rid of this Toronto ticket that i spent almost as much as the set of Blu-Ray on, and can't sell for 'best offer', let alone face!!
Test Pilot: wonder if I can sneak another late night, last minute question. It's not a Blu Ray question. You've sold me on the Blu Ray! And maybe a PS3 too! It's content: This set is 5 studio disks, 3 "Performance Series" Disks and "JTTP" the movie. Does the JTTP disk only contain the movie, or is it the movie and soundtrack album? Any Interesting JTTP-Era archival material on that disk?
Sorry man...just milking it....LRR
Ah, I missed the cutoff! Anyway. Thanks Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Neil Young, L.A. Johnson and Test Pilot! You'll go down in Archives Lore as a great part of 2008, the next year when Archives Hype reached a fever pitch (like it did in 2004, 2000, 1996, 1993) :-)
What a great couple of days on TW!!!!!
LRR
Yes. What a great couple of days on TW!!!!!
Thanks for all the info! Maybe it's good to make some kind of conclusion of this page and the previous one from some time ago. They both are very helpful.
Thanks again Thrasher and Test Pilot!
B.S.M.
Hey! lol that was a shout out to me in there :o) Too bad I missed all this and didn't get a word in. What a great thing this was on behalf of Test Pilot and the NYA Crew!! Many many thanks, and some great questions People...helped me just reading what you've done here. Awesome to have you around Thrasher! Beautiful work on not just the site but the hugh amount of work done!!! Roger LIVE RUST
www.liverust.com
Isn't it time for something new after those exciting days? What about this one:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97029604
SM Live preview with sound clip!
From 24 November 11:15 e.t. they have a stream of the complete album... B.S.M.
I hope that Neil understands that a BR disc is just that, a disc. It's a physical medium, which will dissappear someday as price-per-GB goes down (as it always does).
MP3's are seen as an evil, but somebody should tell Neil that high-resolution, as good as BR standards, can be done with Mp3s too. Lossless, 24bit/96khz FLACs.
Because in a way, many of us just want the music. Why are those people forgotten? They are really much more present than you might think. If they are ignored, it won't be long until you have access to all the archive disc (even the digital live stuff exclusives) in high res music format digitally. If you can hear it, you can share it.
To John McClane
I'll correct your semantics a bit. FLAC is not a form of mp3, mp3 refers to a specific type of lossy compression, and FLAC is a whole different animal.
But you raise an excellent point. Some day, bluray will die. But FLAC, since it is a free and open source format, will likely live on. And even if FLAC does die, it can be converted to other formats.
If a true archive, preserving his music for posterity, is what neil is after, he should use an open format. 100 years from now, the descendants of FLAC files will still be floating around on the internet (or whatever form the internet evolves to), but bluray players will only be found in museums.
I look forward to uploading the FLAC files I create of Neil's archives to the music server my grandkids will connect to with the implants in their brain. :)
Thanks for the comments, which has cleared it all up a bit in my mind. Quite happy to purchase on Blu-Ray, but can find no information about a release date in Australia. Maybe he could bring some with him when he tours??!
Hi guys, this is my first post here. Just wanted to mention that I got Sugar Mountain early, and watched the Trailer for the Archives. The Journey Through the Past film will be included in the Archives set.
I just listened to the Sugar Mountain Canterbury CD DVD on my Blue Ray player and the sound is just awesome!DVD's and Blue Ray discs have much better sound than cds and can hold 50 gigs folks! Neils no dummie he knows what the future holds for the blue ray format.Also the trailer included on the sugar mountain dvd says Archives will be available both in the DVD Blue Ray format but the blue ray will offer extra features.
testing, check ,check
Does anyone know if the new "Live At Canterbury House 1968" CD/DVD set will reappear on the "Archives" project on Blu-ray media?
Hugues Aufraises
will Sugar Mountain Live at the Canterbury House be released on Blu-Ray?
What's blue ray?
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