Cameron Crowe, Neil Young, Russ Tamblyn, Charlotte Stewart, Devo's Gerald Casale
(Click photo to enlarge)
Well, no sooner we observe the decline in comments here on Thrasher's Wheat over the years, than lo and behold?!
Of course, it's never been about quantity... more a search for quality, i.e. The Wheat. Afterall, who needs comments that are nothing but chaff? You guys never cease to amaze us with your insights, passions and musings.
So on to the latest Comment of the Moment on "Neil Young Discusses New Album With Promise of the Real" from Ian:
I've now read the quotation from Rolling Stone [via "An Evening With Neil Young"] twice over, and I have to strongly differ with some comments I'm reading here.Ian, no worries on Resident Pretentious Intellectual of Thrasher's Wheat (RPIoTW). An honor and a privilege to bestow. As always, thanks for your insightful observations. As we so often say, Neil fans (& TW readers) are some of the most astute and knowledgeable music lovers in the world and we're very honored to have you (and everyone else) here as regular readers. Sincerely.
First of all, I completely agree with the person who said "Since when has Neil ever made sense?", in the sense that he's often saying quirky and/or just abstract things that don't make literal sense at first flush. This is the guy who came up with Journey Through the Past and Human Highway, right? What about RNS with road-eyes? The man has been inhabiting his own planet for some time now, and if any thinks otherwise, I have to wonder how much attention they've ever paid him. If what Neil is quoted as saying here is "gibberish", then so is plenty of good poetry that I could quote. There's really nothing new about this to me--except for the kind of music I think Neil is describing here. This I haven't heard him do before, and it sounds exciting to me.
Yes, he's done some stuff with Crazy Horse recently (2012) that's loose, unstructured, has moments of pure sound, etc. But I think I can see where this is different from that, in that he seems to be suggesting that the traditional concept of the song as the fundamental unit in which the music comes will not apply to this album. In other words, I'm picturing long, free-flowing, partially ambient pieces of music (whether there will be any words interspersed, who knows?), with very little in the way of conventional song structure involved. Even Neil's most elongated Crazy Horse showcases have some semblance of songwriting to them. What I'm imagining here involves dreamy, floating soundscapes and painting pictures with musical sounds. I'm up for it myself. For the record, the coda of Walk Like a Giant is one of my favorite things that Neil has done in the last ten years, an extraordinarily powerful four-five minutes of sound. It appeals to the part of me that feels that all of these structures we devise, including melodies and songs (i.e. music with lyrics) are artificial in a sense, and that moving traditional structure can sometimes bring us to a purer level of expression of our feelings as humans.
In short, I'm looking forward to this new album. It does sound like something he's never done before, which is an accomplishment in itself at this point in his career. I guess there's no chance Neil could get this one out by, say, June--in time for the summer Europe dates, instead of having us waiting until the holiday shopping season? (But I'd rather the time be taken to make it a stronger work than just rush it out.) As for this talk about non-musical noise, if you want to talk about the borders between music and sound, listen to Olivier Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time and get back to me.
I'm not trying to be the Resident Pretentious Intellectual of the Thrasher forum here, but if I come across that way, so be it.
More discussion on "Neil Young Discusses New Album With Promise of the Real".
Thanks for the shout out. I was a little surprised by some of the more critical immediate responses to this piece of news, but mostly I'm glad to see the discussion getting a little more vibrant. I sincerely hope everyone gives this new album, whenever it appears, a genuine chance, rather than prejudging it based on the brief, enigmatic comments we've gotten from Neil in which he's clearer describing the stuff in abstract, conceptual, imaginative terms. There can be drawbacks to Ny's seemingly inspirational, impulsive, and sometimes unpolished working style, but can we at least give it a chance before deciding it's too different from 1975 to be any good?
ReplyDeleteYup let's wait and see.
ReplyDelete'I can see where this is different from that, in that he seems to be suggesting that the traditional concept of the song as the fundamental unit in which the music comes will not apply to this album. In other words, I'm picturing long, free-flowing, partially ambient pieces of music (whether there will be any words interspersed, who knows?), with very little in the way of conventional song structure involved. Even Neil's most elongated Crazy Horse showcases have some semblance of songwriting to them. What I'm imagining here involves dreamy, floating soundscapes and painting pictures with musical sounds'....Ian Kertis
Ambient???
I think you're find nothing new here Todd Rundgren did this 30 years ago.
I think we're taking this all too seriously.....
I'm open to almost anything, but personally I need words/songs. I'm not too musically inclined and am largely tone deaf, so I don't really appreciate instrumental works (even the conventional ones).
ReplyDeleteTake my advice
don't listen to me
I was largely joking with my comment about a dark ambient album, but do you think that post rock is really out of the realm of Neil? Do you guys think he could pull something like that off?
ReplyDeleteAfter seeing Neil Young & PotR in Seattle last Oct 4th, I knew Neil was having the time of his life with these young super-fans, Promise of the Real. The show was spectacular as they mined his deep catalogue and also played great versions of songs from The Monsanto Years. I expected that Neil would record again with PotR on his next album. I even anticipated the focus would be Earth and nature. I am not psychic. But, for once, I saw where Neil's Muse was leading him before the announcements were made. Neil Young is a truly dedicated environmentalist and a prophet of sorts. Neil has stood bravely and effectively against injustice so many times. From Ohio to LWW, he told the Military Profiteers where they could stick it. When he said on FitR, "There's a bailout coming but its not for you" he saw right through the facade of the too-rich-for-jail Wall Street bankers. The middle class would foot the bill, since Corporations pay no tax after decades of effective lobbying. Then our favorite Rock Star *ucked the GMA-connected, GMO-loving behemoth, Starbucks. He told truth about the poisons in our food supply, the deadly game being pushed by Monsanto, the seeds being hijacked. And he sang tragic tribute (quite appropriately) to the Earth, under the Wolf Moon, or any other. Who's Gonna Stand Up and Save the Earth, indeed? The artist I have obsessively followed since 1988 has gained focus in his songs and his values have come to the forefront, namely saving the Earth for future generations. I was an environmental studies major in college when I first became a fan of the man. His values align with my own. Unfortunately, it is the "American way" to trash and develop every square inch of our fragile planet, to tap every resource, to cut down every tree. We humans are destroying the planet for all living creatures with our focus on profits and disregard for our fellow sentient beings, human and animal. Every living thing on Earth is now endangered due to Global Warming, whether it walks, slithers, swims, or flies. The focus was expected, although I can't describe what it will sound like, I am tremendously excited that Neil Young has another album in the can and I will soon get to hear it. And, if I'm lucky, he will return to Seattle and I will get to see him play again (for my 17th show). And yes, it is so strange that many of his "fans" can do nothing but make cynical predictions and deride the artist, who has rarely failed, even in the recent past, to create compelling work. Neil Young delivers. Yes, he is getting older, aren't we all? Should we not celebrate that this incredible man is still doing it?! Whether wielding Old Black, strumming an acoustic, or playing piano and harmonica, the man has something very worthwhile to say, and I am ecstatic to be here to enjoy it. I will be wearing my Neil Young Monsanto Years shirt on May 21st as I join hundreds and hundreds of others to March Against Monsanto for the 3rd year in a row in downtown Seattle. I am excited about Bernie Sanders because he has values and he is not a corporate whore, a sell-out, or a racist sociopath. Once again, I scratch my head and chuckle about the pissed off Right-wing Neil Young fans who are so upset that he is paying attention to these momentous, critically important issues. Oh, if only he would just re-record Harvest or (fill in the album title here). That is not what our hero does. If you don't care about what he is saying, I feel sorry for you. But I feel way more sorry for your Grandkids, because they are the ones who will be living in a world far too Hot with severe shortages of food and water. You can say the feeling's gone, but Neil is not the one who has lost it. Have a look in the mirror. Wake up. Apathy kills. Smell the roses, too. Thank you Neil Young. -Alan in Seattle
ReplyDeleteKudos, Alan.
ReplyDeleteAnd to you, Ian.
I can hardly believe these things still need to be said- or maybe I do believe it. Over the years, I chimed in to this effect here and there, arguing against one dimensional views of Neil, trying to communicate that no informed fan could possibly be surprised at anything coming from Neil, let alone question where it was coming from. To repeat ad nausium, to each their own, doesn't mean you have to like this or that, but you simply cannot question the method or the motive. In my mind, it was and is the same as it ever was, unvarnished and spontaneous- with plenty of room after the fact for him to "improve" on it, and for us to appreciate in retrospect. After a while, I got tired of "pissing in the wind", and have to admit, withdrew from the fray of all the negativity on this site, which vis a vis the dwindling of comments cited in recent posts, must be true of at least several others. For whatever reason, this reluctancy bled over to most other conversations, even though a day has never gone by without me checking in on what Thrasher has to contribute- sorry for what could be construed as a lack of support, Thrasher. People coming to a Neil Young appreciation site to trash the man because he does not conform to the prescribed standards they seem never to tire trying to shove down his throat. Amazing.
Over the last several years, Neil has seen one cherished friend after another fade from his life, is currently on the other side of a marriage that I'm guessing he cherished, also. Across this new, unfamiliar, foreign, and I'm guessing lonelier territory, he continues to be assaulted by examples of complete and utter disdain for all that is decent and responsible, relative to man's inhumanity to man, and man's stewardship of the earth, both of which mirror a like disdain for our Creator. After years of giving us unparalleled music and words, of giving back in the form of charity and advocacy, and earning the right not to have to apologize to anyone about his career choices, there are those among us still looking for some kind of apology for not giving them another On The Beach? The man is seventy, still rocking and producing material close to his heart, and the takeaway for so many is that the lyrical content is not some sort of repetition of the perspectives only younger versions of himself could produce? His voice ain't what it used to be? He should spend more time now polishing songs in a way he never has? He should chuck the immediacy of the moment that has always instigated his recordings? He should start getting stoned again to grease the wheels of his flagging creativity?
I know there are a lot of reasonable people raising valid questions asking to what we might attribute perceived changes in the music and the man, and people who have in-their-mind-legitimate concerns about some of Neil's view's, but come on. It can't be that he is an older man, whose changed life circumstances are now informing his music in ways that are necessarily different than what it used to be? It can't be that his music still mirrors his inner experience, and given the changed circumstances, comes across differently? It has to be that he's just gotten cravenly sloppy in his old age?
In the end, you just have to laugh, and remember the words of golfer Jack Nicklaus in response to similar criticism of the golfer Greg Norman, who hadn't met the expectations of certain of his "fans", either: "It's amazing what some people think you 'should' do." Can't say it any better. Amazing.
A Friend Of Yours
@Andy Walters--" Ambient" as in music that eschews traditional song structure, rhythm, etc. in favor of tone and atmosphere. Of course, I'm not suggesting that no one has done anything like this before. Maybe I should have been clearer: I haven't heard *Neil Young* go very far in this direction--though there are certainly moments, such as the last four-five minutes of "Walk Like a Giant" that border on being sound art rather than music. Throughout his discography, there are moments of Neil playing with atmosphere and tone: Broken Arrow, Will to Love, not to mention albums like Trans and Le Noise, which play with altering or distorting the soundscape in fundamental ways as part of the project. Sleeps with Angels also has lots of atmosphere on it, to where it's almost, for me, a kind of New Age Grunge record. In other words, it's not completely new to Neil, but if I'm right (and I could be misreading all of this), he's going further in this direction than he ever has before. Also, isn't asking Neil to originate a new form or genre of music setting the bar a bit high? Of course it's going to have reference to prior works. What usually happens, as the history of Neil's catalogue can show us, is that he just adds his own Neil-specific touch to whatever kind of music he is making. Witness the Bluenotes, International Harvesters, Shocking Pinks, Trans, etc.
ReplyDelete@Greg Mantho--Thanks for your excellent comments! I think we're essentially getting at the same thing here. We're both confused by the degree of consternation and, for lack of a better word, hoopla coming from some fans about all Neil Young's activities and choices these days. I have also been a semi-regular at best throughout the several years I've been on this site. There are other things in life and, like you said, it can get a little old reading some of the same complaints ad nauseam. Mostly there's no ill will behind my comings and goings; I just have other threads of life that I'm pursuing sometimes.
@Topanga Daze--Thanks for contextualizing your perspective as regards your "tone deafness". Considering that, theoretically, the thing bringing us together here is music, what you said could be taken as a daring admission and moment of self-exposure, so I appreciate the candidness. Plus, it just helps to know things like that when you're trying to understand why someone views things as they do. It's always good to acknowledge that there are things about us that may color our feelings and perceptions, that it's not just the input we receive but also what we bring to our own experiences--our output.
I am truly bewildered by the desire of some people to critique a piece of music has even been heard yet.Not one note! Coming from Neil I am pretty sure that it will be engaging and will be a commentary on the condition of our earth at this time if his recent musical output his public commentaries and his activism are an accurate barometer.We should thank him for this...He's "the real thing,baby !!" The Watchman
ReplyDeleteI am truly bewildered by the desire of some people to critique a piece of music has even been heard yet.Not one note! Coming from Neil I am pretty sure that it will be engaging and will be a commentary on the condition of our earth at this time if his recent musical output his public commentaries and his activism are an accurate barometer.We should thank him for this...He's "the real thing,baby !!" The Watchman
ReplyDeleteIan's comment is a good one.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, the most offensive comments here are those saying (and I'll paraphrase/exaggerate for effect): "Some Neil Young fans are such morons/jerks/assholes, what right do they have to judge Neil's work, they say Neil hasn't written a good song since 1912, what idiots" before descending into incoherent blather for 25 paragraphs (or one long one in the case of Alan from Seattle).
In truth most of the comments on the subject in question were a delight to read, whatever their perspective. I've made an example of Alan twice now, but he too has some great points and his enthusiasm shines through. But I do think some people just enjoy an argument. If there's no comment to be outraged at then they will invent one for their own gratification.
Here are the names of some of Neil's strongest critics: Poncho Sampedro. David Briggs. Niko Bolas. Steve Stills.
It hasn't done them any harm. These people love Neil Young's music: they know how truly great he can be, and are enthusiastic for him to reach those dizzy heights. Neil once said that the reason Briggs had a job was because he WAS very critical. And as Poncho recently said: "nobody talks to Neil like that any more".
So before judging someone for the critical nature of their comments, decide whether they are being critical to benefit themselves or others. They are totally different attitudes, and often you will be surprised. There's a difference between being harsh and being provocative with good intentions.
Scotsman.
I love Neil.But he hasn't put out a great album since Ragged glory.Yes there were some great moments on psychedelic pill
ReplyDeleteAnd a few songs here and there over the years but nothing that has moved me to buy any of it.
Good points about the motives of some commenters Flyingscotzman, but it can all be a little patronizing, too. Trying to save Neil from himself- poor old guy just doesn't get it any more. But what if it's the detractors who don't get it, assuming that something is amiss just because it doesn't sound the way they want it to sound?
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll put up the last ten years of Neil's life work against the combined work of the names you mention, anytime.
But you're right, being judgmental sucks, too. But that's what comes of frustration sometimes, and of being disheartened with so much negativity. But if it's a mea culpa you want- mea culpa, sometimes I can't help myself when someone who has given me so much for 47 years continues to get dragged through the mud. I'll try to count to ten the next time.
A Friend Of Yours
Greg,
ReplyDeleteSo beautifully said!
Seems like Neil had something to say on this too:
When faceless and anonymous
Come to beat down your door
And say you're all washed up and done
You can just say they have nothing in store
To touch this soul
Because they just don't know
They just don't know
The way
Ah, yes: The Way. The same "Way" that Neil is searching for in the previous song, No Hidden Path. The song that so clearly pays tribute to David Briggs as "my missing friend whose counsel I can never replace". It doesn't take a genius to link the two.
ReplyDeleteSo are we in support of the Briggs' "be great or be gone" approach or not? Neil certainly is, as he's made clear so very often. He even says in Waging Heavy Peace that he hasn't always paid the best attention to his advice recently. You could say I'm just reiterating some of his ideas because they've clearly had such a positive effect on Neil's work. The man being dead doesn't mean his ideas have to just fade away.
That's why I don't think what I'm saying is Inappropriate: because the same ideas have been so heavily endorsed by Neil himself. Of course, to the simpering super-fan, this makes me some clueless villain who just doesn't know "the way", whatever that means.
Depending on who it is coming from, I could even take that as a compliment.
Scotsman.
Fly,
ReplyDeleteDon't take it all so seriously,
You're all just pissin'
in the wind
You don't know it but you are
And there ain't nothin'
like a friend
Who can tell you
you're just pissin'
in the wind.
Phillip Denis--For me, Sleeps with Angels qualifies as a great album. Chrome Dreams II is on the cusp. Le Noise has some very powerful moments (Love and War, Walk with Me), and there are albums like Greendale and Living with War, which, while imperfect, are major landmarks in Neil's latter day work. Obviously what is "great" vey much depends on the ear of the beholder. Storytone is another recent important album. I don't know if I'd call it "great", but certainly I found it rejuvenating for Neil's songwriting.
ReplyDeleteGreg Mantho--"Patronizing" is a good word to describe the feeling I've been trying to communicate regarding some of the criticism. Again, you hit the nail.
Scotsman, Just to clarify that even if we don't agree on everything, I appreciate that your comments are thoughtful and sincere--you do raise some interesting points. As far as the narrative that Neil's work has gone down the tubes post-Briggs, while I'm sure that the Young/Briggs dynamic was a unique relationship that cannot be replaced, I've always felt it would be unhealthy to stop because Briggs is gone, not that I think Neil *can* stop anyway. The "be great or be gone" mantra is a little complicated for me. It's not possible to always be great, but even when you're not being great, there's a tremendous desire and need to keep _being_. However, it's very helpful to have that friend who can tell you when you're "just pissing in the wind", and I've often thought that that line in No HIdden Path is probably Briggs. The only other thing I'd say here is that for years, even during Briggs' time, Neil's work has been regarded as inconsistent and Neil himself as erratic. I'm pretty sure he put out stuff that Briggs hated, so who's to say how powerful Briggs' influence really was at any given moment? On that some note, as I've said before (but it will bear repeating), it's not like Neil being being erratic and doing weird things is anything new. Genuine criticism is welcome, but to me, some of the handwringing seems to be either naive or simply ignoring the fact that Neil has always been prone to oddball projects, intense fixations, and "love-it-or-hate-it" albums. There isn't much about any of this that should be new or alarming for established fans.
I'd agree that the others you point out are worthy of being highlighted, and, presumably, are all still there giving Neil counsel as he requests. I especially like Pancho Sampedro from what I've heard/read; he seems versatile (by Crazy Horse standards), and willing to pile on for many of Neil's project--qualities that suggest the ideal band musician to me. If I remember right, Pancho was involved in the Bluenotes, Booker T. and the MGs sessions, and probably some other non-Horse ventures.
And we'll just add this about Neil's creativity and the Muse as enters decade #7...
ReplyDeleteFrom an interview with Joan Baez:
Q: Why did you stop writing songs?
Joan Baez: I wish it was clear for me how it happened, then maybe I could start writing again. But it’s kind of an “it.” It just submerged itself. Because the way I had always written was just that it came out. It just happened. Or I’d hear a tune in my head and the words would come. And then, very suddenly it just stopped. It seemed too stilted to try and learn how to write a song, to go to round robins and to learn things from other people on how to write a song. So I just stopped and did other things.
Q: Are you open to the possibility of writing again?
Joan Baez: If It came back I would be thrilled. I would be delighted to write more songs. I need them now because I want to make an album and I have to depend on other people’s music, which I’ve done for years. But still, it’d be really nice to be able to sprinkle it with my own.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/music/qanda-with-joan-baez-even-taylor-swift-thinks-shes-cool/2016/03/03/3b385c34-df1c-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html