Today, Neil Young has finally announced the long expected introduction of "Tiered Memberships" to NYA.
In a posting on NYA, Neil Young writes:
We’re creating two additional tiers of membership in addition to the current Classic tier - Rust and Patron. NYA’s Classic tier will provide all of the benefits you’re now enjoying plus an extra treat (see below), remaining at the same price ($19.99/yr).
Neil On Demand!
In addition, Neil Young announced that all of the Bridge Concerts will be made available to rent for 24
hours @ $9.99 each, which will be donated to the Bridge School. Neil Young writes:
Coming with these concerts at Movietone is a huge selection of films from the archives, videos, short subjects and full length movies. These films, now found on the Movietone page, are all available for new “Rust” subscribers and of course, “Patrons”.
Don't Be Denied!
ok the description of what a Patron level membership gets you is very vague...perhaps I missed something
ReplyDelete"Our Patrons help to grow the site more quickly"
oh.
How about "Patrons will receive a DVD audio of Toast"
Anyone else not able to see NY Archives web page? What's going on?
ReplyDeleteCan see but can’t play... under construction...
ReplyDeletethank you Tomatron, working now.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the update, zejt. There are a couple of new things I want to check out!
DeleteSeems my "classic" tier account is not being recognized. Account page has me listed as in the "free" account, even though I last renewed late November. I sent a message to customer support, in hopes that can be resolved soon, but wondering if any others have experienced the same.
ReplyDeleteReally psyched to be able to watch some of the Bridge shows. I went to the 1st and 3rd Bridge shows, and would love to see those again.
Looks like the account issue has already been resolved. There's some other glitches at the moment, but I'm sure it'll get sorted out soon enough.
ReplyDeleteAnd, looks like the first Bridge Show on deck is in deed the show that started it all in 1986 (minus D. Henley set -- c'mon Henley). Looking forward to checking it out this weekend.
At this moment on a Tuesday night, songs won’t play but videos are working. Young Shakespeare’s Down By The River stuns. A Short Visit To The Archives by LA Johnson provides glimpses of hidden treasures, classic, recently revealed, and soon-to-be heard on Volume III!
ReplyDeleteIt's 9am in the UK and songs are now playing, but with the occasional wait before they start and I had one major glitch when I had to log back in again. On a scale of 1-10 for Hideous IT upgrades I'd count this in the 1 or 2 minor niggle category.
ReplyDeleteNew Memberships - I love how the new Rust membership reflects one of the main reasons why so many signed up to the old mail list - access to tape & CD exchange trees of new & old concerts. Now we can cut out the middle man and ask for a gig direct from the artist & his team.
Although I confess to a great nostalgic memory of waiting for packages from all over Europe containing The bottom Line on cassette tape (at last!) or the 4CD Euro tour 2001 (Toast) compilation collection. Clicking OK and waiting for a download hasn't got the same feel.
Patron level - Jonathan I think this seems vague because the whole point of being a "Patron" is that you're supporting the artist regardless of what they do or offer - it says 'for supporters of the arts' on the subscription page.
I've been a supporting member of the Royal Shakespeare Company for several years and for the same sort of cost as NYA I get advanced ticket booking and newsletters. If I upgraded to a "Production Circle Patron" (for a mere £25,000 or $37,500 a year) I'd get "Regular opportunities to engage in your chosen production as it develops from the rehearsal room to the live performance onstage at times convenient to you.his could include a concept meeting with the show director (and) invitations to sit in on company rehearsals" - or so they say.
Now I can't image Neil offering that sort of access, but it has the tantalising tease of maybe an exclusive on-line play back of a new album, guaranteed rail tickets for concerts, after show specials and the like.
And something else I've not seen mentioned - in the dhlovelife biog of NYA staff on the Subscriber News page, it casually mentions "Our podcast series with Bill Bentley, myself and others, in pre-production now, will begin this year under the direction of dhlovelife".
Now that could have anything in it - maybe even a Patron Q & A?
Hambone in the UK
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DeleteHambone:
Delete...very perceptive points about tape/CD trading, and what it means to be a patron. I agree.
Scotsman.
Yes! It's true.
ReplyDeleteThe NYA website, contrary to my doom-and-gloom early predictions, is indeed showing signs of flourishing.
(...and the app actually now works on my phone, sort of.)
I've been actively rallying in favour of a more extensive "concert archive" at NYA for more than 2 years. And I am delighted to see it coming to life.
But NYA (with cheap prices, very limited "exclusive content" and ridiculous expenses) has also struggled to make a profit; a problem even for a shrewd fellow like Neil who has reportedly just pocketed $150,000,000.
So here's a typically-messy compilation of my thoughts, still relevant (I think) as we move forward into 2021. Take 'em or leave 'em.
The goal, of course, is to make a profit. Because as Zig Ziglar said, "you can do a lot more with profit than you can with loss". A profit can be re-invested in the project (or spent on a new swimming pool or vintage car).
And so the secret to the success of an archive project like NYA is to a) increase prices to make it profitable and b) make it obviously well worth the cost, from the target audience's perspective.
Record companies, greedy as they often are, are unsurprisingly enthusiastic about the first point but conveniently ignore the second.
And so people lose interest....the word stops spreading.
People like you and I start to give up, stop visiting.
And the project starts to die.
But if NYA keep *both* points in mind, then they have a real chance of succeeding.
Neil Young, of course, has *too much* great music to release to a conventional schedule. Neil could live to 200 (you'd be a fool to bet against it), and he'd still be discovering new concert tapes in his archive.
("Oh look, a tape of the Mountain House gig from 1990: it somehow fell down the back of the mixing desk for 150 years!")
And the NYA website is the perfect place to (gradually) put all the stuff that doesn't really have a place anywhere else.
Demos, outtakes, videos, live recordings, podcasts...you name it. A treasure chest of gems, misfits, rarities and curiosities. That's what an archive is all about, isn't it?
And over time, it all adds up. It becomes such a remarkable and comprehensive resource that a true fan can't possibly ignore it. And that's what the target should be.
(Continued below)
Moving on.
DeleteI think a gradual roll-out makes more sense than the short-lived strategy of dumping everything on the site at once. Keep the tension mounting. Neil's most captivating lead-guitar performances build up to boiling point: the same philosophy should apply to NYA.
Surprises have impact. A regular schedule is important and gets the audience into the habit of visiting, but it also becomes taken for granted. Shake things up, sometimes, to keep the audience on their toes.
Record companies are SLOW and need to make announcements months in advance. NYA can act more swiftly, and should.
More suggestions?
Fire off a few cannons, first. An extraordinary show added to the concert timeline (with accompanying notes to give some fascinating context) will generate more benefit (via positive word-of-mouth) than paying for advertising.
The prototype concert additions back in November kind of went under the radar, but they were a leap in the right direction.
Include an allocation of download tickets for premium subscribers. The record company will HATE this idea: that's because they are still imprisoned in 1976 and arrogantly believe they are still owed a living.
Yes, the greedy scoundrels want to extract every last penny from our cold, dead hands. They want us to buy everything multiple times, and (fools that we are), we obligingly line up and bend over.
But of course, we aren't that stupid. We're not cold and dead. We're vividly alive, and we're not going to take any bullsh!t from a dying industry trying to rip us off.
There are plenty of other worthwhile causes to spend our money on, instead.
My point: including some "free" downloads just might be a major selling point for a fanbase which still likes to actually "own" music (rather than just rent it). And it discourages people from seeking out ways to download unofficially.
...People will download regardless of whether you "allow" them to or not! The old-skool music industry failed to learn that lesson 20 years ago, tried to fight it, and was mortally wounded as a result. So you might as well make it a selling point, instead.
Yet more suggestions:
Make every page easy to share a link to, online. No, neither you nor I use social media. But lots of people do. Why not make it easy for them to spread the word?
Or do the opposite: make it SO jumbled and messy and impenetrable and chaotic that it feels like a REAL archive. It all depends what the goal is. Do you care about reaching a sustainable audience or not? Don't answer too hastily.
Some fans, of course, are naturally more connected than others. If I knew someone who ran the foremost Neil Young internet blog (not to name any names) that helps spread the word across the planet, then I'd consider giving that person a complimentary membership. For obvious reasons.
And what about me: the inflammable, pompous Scotsman? Will I myself be becoming a patron?
Of course not! I'm a professional, not a bloody "patron". And I've contributed more of value in the last few paragraphs than some folks actually on the Warner payroll.
But I will be satisfied to settle for a complimentary upgrade to my membership: NYA knows how to reach me on line 1.
In the meantime, though, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. Lots of potential, here.
Scotsman.
PS
ReplyDeleteFollowing on from one point above:
Thrasher probably doesn't get enough credit for maintaining this blog, hosting the discussion, and generally promoting Neil's work (year after year).
Musicians sometimes have a mixed relationship with their fanbase. Do they want the attention or not? You can understand why "both" would be a popular answer.
But without fans like Thrasher spreading the word, it's safe to say that even a monumental artist like Neil wouldn't have much of a fanbase in today's harsh musical climate.
Scotsman.
Signed up for Patron.
ReplyDeleteSlightly disappointed that there's no pay monthly option for the new tiers, I know $40 isn't that much but it's more than I can spare immediately, unfortunately. That said, it still looks great value, especially the videos - something I've been looking forward to for ages.
ReplyDeleteThe main glitch I'm still experiencing is the inability to play audio files, same as what @tomatron reports. But, I discovered this is only an issue in Firefox (my preferred browser). In Chrome, I can play back the audio no problem (Chrome Dreams, I guess, though I'd rather avoid the Googleverse where I can). YMMV.
ReplyDeleteNice to see the playlists reappear.
I'll probably stick with my Classic Tier subscription, with the occasional donation rental of a Bridge Show. The added VOD and live shows isn't a big draw for me at the moment. As Scotsman notes, plenty of other worthy causes to give money to right now (watching the Inside the Archives video made me think of all the cultural heritage sites around the world that struggle to preserve global cultural on shoestring budgets at best), and the upcoming schedule of releases is already shaping up to be a year where I contribute heavily to the Bank of Neil. Where did all the revenue stream?
How do you increase your subscription to Rust or Patron? Having problems here unfortunately. Thank you!
ReplyDelete@ Dane
ReplyDeletea)Login – Subscription – Account Overview – Update – View Plans – Get Rust/Patron
b)Login – Subscription – View Plans – Get Rust/Patron
Hope this helps.
Kim
Denmark
I’m planning on the Patron tier. NYA for $99.99 a year is still a bargain as far as I’m concerned. The ten minute video through Neil’s archives was impressive to say the least. It rivals the Zappa archives, and that’s quite a remarkable accomplishment. There is no possibility anyone could actually live long enough to see and hear everything in that vault, but I’m happy its there for future generations.
ReplyDeletePeace 🙏
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe key to success for this website?
ReplyDeleteMake it a bargain.
...Note that I *didn't* say "make it cheap"!
On the contrary, I'm entirely in favour of a higher price. But make it worth it. Blow us away with that live show from Rotterdam 1989, and then Concord 1993, and then Cal Expo 1996 (or whatever). Release things often and without too much warning, jolting us out of our routine-induced stupor.
No matter how costly the subscription, NYA should make the customer think "WOW! I really got a good deal there. This is an incredible resource. Now, I'm having so much fun I must rave about this to my friends..."
That's how the word spreads.
(NYA Vol 2 gave us something to talk about, alright: the Greedy Hand marketing was so contemptuous I spent two weeks telling everybody I know that I'd never buy a Neil Young box set ever again. So it works both ways.)
Easier said than done? Yes, of course. Especially with a record company that might well be pressing for the stingiest approach possible.
But you don't make waves by playing it safe - Neil knows that better than any of us.
Don't get me wrong! NYA shouldn't fire every bullet it has at once. Far from it. But it does need to come out firing...on a frequent, sustainable basis.
If it does, I think people will quickly start to notice that yes, this is an exciting project and yes, it really is worth paying extra for.
Scotsman.
In todays Times prices are high. Spoken to a lot of people today who are staying with the $19.99 level. Been buying NY stuff since 1968, sorry Neil but out of my league.
ReplyDeleteHa ha ha, Scotsman, "I've contributed more of value in the last few paragraphs than some folks actually on the Warner payroll." Given what I read, this seems right.
ReplyDelete@Scotsman since the archives have only reach 1975-6 there's still another 44 years of material to get through so I think there will be plenty of WOW moments over the next few years. And there seems to be plenty of teases of what's coming every time the letters column or subscriber news gets updated so we can all become full-time Neilologists trying to fit it all together.
ReplyDeleteAnd I went for Patron subscription after my other half reminded me that the cost of an upgrade was what we'd pay for a decent birthday meal at our favourite country restaurant - which won't be opening for a few months under the UKs pandemic guidelines. So I'm happy to try it out for a year and if it doesn't deliver then it's back to Classic.
If me paying a bit more means the Classic costs stays low I'm fine with that.
But it would be good to know that the cost of our subscriptions actually go to funding the Archives project - I too would be bummed if it was simply a corporate money hoover.
Hambone
I’ve been providing an income for Neil’s artistic endeavors since Everybody Knows this is Nowhere. If we can aid in financing his work he will be able to keep the music coming. It cost a ton of money just to record an album, let alone a tour. He’s responsible for the livelihood of so many people other than himself and his family, I’m convinced that he’s raising the money for all the right reasons and I’m willing to do my small part so he has the freedom to follow the elusive muse wherever he chooses for as long as he can.
ReplyDeleteThe possibilities are endless to what NYA could become if done right. So far I think it has become a working example to other artists to strive towards in the future. Neil has proven himself to be a savvy business man as well as an important and valuable musician that just keeps on giving relentlessly. NYA is setting the bar pretty high and I hope other artists will follow his lead and create their own unique vision for their music. Neil has already proved it can work. What a visionary.
Peace 🙏
I'm still undecided as to whether I'll bump up the whole nut or just halfway. But I do think offering the Bridge School concerts for donations is a brilliant idea.
ReplyDeleteI don't really see this movement of new Neil listeners happening, and anything that is done to the site creating them. There will be a steady minor amount of new listeners like the last decades have supplied, but more might be dying off in the coming years than joining ranks. I have even given several gift subscriptions to more than casual listeners that got excited about it as I had told them about NYA, and they really like Neil, but they really don't use it but a couple of times. All this does is soak those of us that love love love Neil's music more and more for something he is going to do anyway because he loves to do it and can't help himself not to. It reminds me of the Gillian Welch tune, Everything is Free. "Someone hit the big score / They figured it out / That we're gonna do it anyway / Even if doesn't pay." It is him creating his legacy. All it does is take more money over and over from the same people that already invest. We can't help ourselves, either.
ReplyDeletePatron status for bragging rites among the addicted. Old F#*cks in grey hair with the most money hoping for the unknown unspecified perks of standing on the Pandemic free rail in their new hips and knees for as long as they can. I might cave and be one of them. But it won't make me proud. And it won't fool me that I am a supporter of the arts, as it really means I am a supporter of just Neil and his music, and that's OK, too - I'm just not gonna fool myself.
No, all these tiers do is find a way to suck more money from those that are already buying all the physical product, going to shows, and buying the merch. 150 million and counting. He could just keep improving his passion project without the tiers. He's gonna do it anyway, even if it doesn't pay...... but it looks like Neil is still gonna go for that extra Benjamin each year, too, for as long as he lives longer than we do, unless he thinks he can get more in years to come. It is, after all, the United States of America.
@ Dane
ReplyDeleteI got the same issue : log out & re-login and then, I was proposed to upgrade.
How it'll work for you too.
Nico
Aer Stephen: Appreciate your comment.
ReplyDeleteWe have to remember there are a lot of fans out there who aren't really active on forums, blogs etc. And so the online buzz you get is often from an echo chamber of fans with a particular worldview.
There is a whole community of fans who grew up trading tapes, collecting them, going to gigs etc. And the website can begin to connect these people who may not have been enthusiastic subscribers up until now.
No, there probably isn't this huge base of new fans out there...but there are plenty of "old" fans who haven't fully been engaged yet.
(Fair point - some of these people have either lost interest or are now dead).
But the beauty of a higher price, of course, is that Neil doesn't need many more fans: because each one is contributing more.
I have no objection to (optional) higher prices, as long as the website delivers more than it has been delivering. Better things tend to cost more money...and why not?
If, in a year's time, we are saying to each other "well, we paid extra - and it was so worth it", then it will have been a success.
(And yes, that is a big "if".)
You hit on another great point. The danger of a tier system is that it can become a vertical show of status that alienates anybody who chooses anything other than "top tier". Fine if you want to sell luxury products, but not good for building a grassroots community.
But the upside of a tier system, when handled well, is it allows different offers to target different sorts of people more precisely.
The "patron" option allows people to feel good about contributing more without the people in the other tiers feeling unfairly discriminated against. And I think that's a good thing.
Do I think *some* of the marketing for Neil Young products recently has been an outrageous cash-grab? Hell yes.
But overall, I think trying to make the the NYA website stand on its own two feet is a worthwhile idea.
Neil says he wants NYA to be an example that other musicians can follow. Well, Neil, it's not much of a great example if (with all your extreme wealth and power) you can't actually make a profit!
That's not very encouraging for those of us without a few hundred million in the bank, is it?
The *best* example NYA can set is by making a sustainable profit that is re-invested into making the experience ever more powerful for its subscribers.
And the way to make a profit isn't to be greedy. It isn't to rip people off with false promises of scarcity, or to treat the customers as wallet-happy idiots to be fleeced.
(Sure, that approach makes a profit; and then everybody leaves and you're left all alone, with your money and your greed).
No, the way forward is to offer a damn-good experience that is easily worth paying extra for. An experience that builds and builds and builds until it simply can't be ignored.
No,this isn't the sort of stuff they'll teach you in the 1983 record company handbook. What else is new?
Scotsman.
Aer Stephen, I find one of your comments quite depressing and also true, the business about the grey haired addicts, etc.., perhaps we should take a lesson from Neil and keep moving on, keep pressing forward with all our life projects. There is also something quite tiresome about "legacy"- In my life, in my experience, I have found those who focus on "legacy" are generally self-righteous assholes.
ReplyDeleteJust to be totally clear, "grey haired addict," etc.., I was NOT implying anything about people on this thread or on Thrasher's Wheat.
ReplyDelete@ ALL - thanks for all the comments on the big announcement.
ReplyDelete@ "Inextinguishable Scotsman" - whoah?! So many great points here ! When you come up out of hibernation you really mean it. Must be the Spring weather. :)
not just a CotMoment -- A Comment of the Month:
http://neilyoungnews.thrasherswheat.org/2021/03/comment-of-moment-new-neil-young.html
@ Aer- likewise, a lot of good points on our 2nd fave topic ART + COMMERCE (hey Abner!)
we're going to have to find some time to properly respond. right now, w/ "Flood on the Tracks" @ NYA, it's become pretty hard to keep up with all of the wheat.
have any music fans ever been so lucky?
@ Abner - no worries.
@ ALL - again, we'll try to get to your emails, post suggestions, tips & tricks as we can.
But Spring is approaching here @ TW. The days are getting longer and the temperatures are rising and the Robins are chirping.
The window of opportunity for Fireside Sessions is rapidly closing. But new windows are opening as hope springs eternal.
plant that bell and let it ring!
peace & love
Aer / Abner,
ReplyDeleteWell I had a quick check in the mirror and am pleased to report there's only 50-50 grey today so there's hope for me yet.
Aer I absolutely get what you say about the likelihood of building a new fanbase using the Archives, but there's another facet that's about building something for other artists to notice and emulate - and they become the means of keeping someone's legacy alive with their younger fans. I was reminded of the sudden re-emergence of the solo work of Scott Walker a few years ago here in the UK, after years on the sidelines. It was other artists like Julian Cope & Jarvis Cocker who kept the interest alive alongside the core fans, culminating in the 2017 BBC Proms concert which had a big (and younger) audience.
So if our collective support of the Archives makes it viable and so visible to other artists, they'll be the ones referencing Neil in the future with us greybeards waving, however unsteadily, from the sidelines.
I've had a lot of joy during my various Lockdowns from supporting loads of new and semi-established artists through buying livestream tickets & downloads even before the Archives came up with the tier idea.
So I see taking out a Patron sub as a thank you to an artist who has enriched my life for 40-odd years - and to be honest a means to justify *not* buying physical products at a a time of life when you want to simplify possessions - whilst also supporting musicians like Kurt Vile who are the newest generation of Young inspired rockers - it's no coincidence that he was asked to curate a set-list in that early Archive experiment, the force is strong in this one.
And in the end it's only for a year at a time - if the sub you chose doesn't deliver, or you don't have time to use it, then downgrade.
Hambone
Hambone, good thoughts. I have recently returned to my old watering hole as the "beer garden" has re-opened, so I can have a few pints outside (which is half insane as I live in the upper-midwest). I talked to the owner, who was a student of mine years ago, and he told me they are barely making it. I realized I can do a lot more to support people and your idea of supporting young artists is a very fine idea. Hope you are well.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI spent 16 years as a professional tour guide in Sedona AZ, and I gave thousands of tours for families from all over the world, and one of the fascinating things I noticed was all the young people I met. These were kids between 10 to 17 years old, and everyday I would meet some of them wearing tee shirts with 70's rock artists. The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, The Doors, Grateful Dead, and yes; Neil Young. Those are just a few of the bands and artists these kids were into.
I always asked if they were actually real fans of these artists, or just got the shirt as a gift from their parents (or in some cases, grandparents). Without hesitation, every one of them gave me the same answer. "This is my favorite band". I would then ask them why they were so into these artists from the distant past, and again, many said they thought that this particular era produced the best music. Some would say they grew up hearing it through their parents. Most admitted to loving the new stuff too, but when push came to shove, these were the artists they loved the most.
Every Neil Young concert I ever attended, the crowds were always a mix of young and old alike. My last show at Red Rocks there were 80 year olds and 10 year olds, and everything in-between. I talked to one young man who was there with his parents and his grandparents. The idea of a fading fan base simply doesn't appear likely, at least not for quite some time yet. I think Neil is basically doing this archive for himself, and for anyone else who's interested. He has always been notorious for throwing every penny he has into everything he's ever done throughout his entire career, so why would this be any different? The fact that NYA exists at all is a testimony to his passion towards his work, and we fans are the grateful recipients of his passion.
My upgrading to Patron has nothing to do with status, it has to do with my willingness to help support one of my favorite artists continue his work that he has graciously given me access to. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and the Archive site suits my taste just fine.
peace🙏
As a high school teacher, I have seen many scholars wearing band Tee's from the 60's-80's. The vast majority told me they just liked the shirt (Metallica being the most common culprit). When those students were in my own classroom, I played the band they were sporting all class period. Some came away loving it, others not so much.
DeleteEither way, I think it's amazing to see you people rocking these shirts. Much like what made our favorite bands so popular, young people want to find something that is different. They want to buck trends and the system, and what better way than sporting some of the original music rebels.
@abner, I am fine and well over here. Thanks for asking. I am blessed that my parents are still around and on the vaccine trail and I get to see them in a few weeks when our own pubs and bars get to re-open. Have some pints for us still waiting.
ReplyDeleteYou're right about following our life projects and Thrasher's Wheat is one of my regular stops to check for rust - I've seen too many contemporaries of mine become park bench mutations and stop growing. This is a place where that won't happen.
Peace to all,
Hambone
The tier system is almost exactly what I suggested went NYA subscriptions first came out. Offer some of the site for free, then one price for all the audio and then another for all the video.
ReplyDeleteI think we all agree that the original subscription of $19.99 a year is a bargain (well explained flyingdutchman). I can't imagine ever cancelling. In the last 2 years I don't think I've once caught a Hearse show that I wanted to see. I don't daily check the schedule, if I happen to see it I miss checking in on that day, etc etc. I'd pay more to have access when I want, for me it's a no-brainer for at least a year, then drop back down.
I don't like the "money grab" comments. Offer, then deliver value, then make money. I think that's how the world should work.
I love the NYA site and all of the available music. The one question that I have is with regards to timing of the subscription. My Classic comes due in August. If I change to Rust now, will the $39.00 fee be prorated with the remaining months left on my Classic subscription?
ReplyDelete@ Richard - yes, that was our experience that fee is prorated and applied to upgrade.
ReplyDeleteenjoy!