Bear with us as we attempt to justify the posting of the "crowd sourced" YouTube video above of Neil Young at Carnegie Hall, on 1/7/14.
First, from the video description:
Thanks to all those who contributed to the making of this video... ESPECIALLY, of course, NEIL YOUNG! Please continue to purchase from Neil's amazingly diverse and expansive catalogue of music (http://www.NeilYoung.com)Now, we admit that we struggled with what to do about this situation, but after a bit of reflection we realized that we simply could not ignore the video and the associated controversy. Hopefully, out of all of this, maybe some good will prevail.
This video is a testament to my lifelong love of Neil's music and I strongly encourage you all to explore and purchase ALL of his officially published music ... but for the next 1hr 52min and 54sec, please enjoy this heavenly acoustic solo performance at Carnegie Hall...
Video recording & editing by http://www.ReelifeProductions.com
additional video: Jersey Nola, Tino Bekkering & Jefftgvid
Audio recording location: DFC 4th mezz ledge, mics split 12" placed inside small openings at foot level.
Thanks to the online communities of:
Rusties on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/RustP...)
Rusties (https://www.facebook.com/groups/rusted/)
Thrasher's Wheat (https://www.facebook.com/ThrashersWhe...)
also check out this radio show that I produced called "A Palace in The Gravy- The Best & Worst of Neil Young": http://youtu.be/QT5lE2eJgeU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neil Young Carnegie Hall, January 7, 2014 - FULL SHOW - a crowd sourced concert film
Set 1:
01 crowd
02 From Hank to Hendrix
03 talking
04 On the Way Home
05 Only Love Can Break Your Heart
06 Love in Mind (piano)
07 talking
08 Mellow My Mind (banjo)
09 Are You Ready for the Country (piano)
10 Someday (piano)
11 talking
12 Changes
13 Harvest
14 talking
15 Old Man
Set 2:
16 crowd
17 Goin' Back
18 A Man Needs a Maid (piano)
19 Ohio
20 Southern Man
21 Mr. Soul (pump organ)
22 talking
23 Needle of Death
24 talking
25 The Needle and the Damage Done
26 talking
27 Harvest Moon
28 Flying on the Ground Is Wrong (piano)
29 talking
30 After the Gold Rush (piano)
31 talking
32 Heart of Gold
33 - encore break -
34 Comes a Time
35 talking
36 Long May You Run
First, you'll note above that our website is listed as credit. 2nd, the video was posted to our Facebook page last week and it created quite a stir. Third, the Wall Street Journal picked this up and interviewed not only the video editor Tom Adams, but Neil Young's manager Elliot Roberts, as well.
When Neil Young is Playing, You Shut the Fuck Up
Backtracking just a bit, recently we wrote about Etiquette At A Neil Young Concert after there was all sorts of complaints about social media behavior at the Carnegie Hall concerts. Over the years, we've blogged on numerous occasions about etiquette at a Neil Young concert, here, here, and here.
So here's the situation, per Bernie B Shakey:
A couple days ago a so-called "crowd-sourced" Neil Young Carnegie Hall video made its way to YouTube…and went viral, or close to it. In less than 48 hours, the video, which captures the complete 1.7.14 show, generated an impressive 16,000+ views (and counting), but that's nothing compared to what's about to happen to it.So. The moral of the story?
You see, the video, expertly created by my Facebook friend Tom Adams, not only caught the eye of rabid Neil Young aficionados, but the powerful and mighty Wall Street Journal also somehow stumbled upon it. And the WSJ deemed the video so noteworthy they opted to publish a story about it (which I've posted below).
In a nutshell, Neil's camp ain't too thrilled with Tom's amazing work: "We find this sort of practice to be incredibly rude toward both the audience and the artist," says Elliot Roberts, who was quoted in the article (which I've posted below).
These days, the practice of people snapping photos and video at any event, not just concerts, is as common as a yellow taxi in NYC, as turkey and mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving, as Neil Young wearing a plaid shirt. *Snap!* People have a want, desire to make a digital copy of their life, their entire life - we record EVERYTHING now. *Snap!* Ironically, Neil made a now-famous "Selfie Rant" at the 1.9.14 show. But, hey, Neil this is the world we live in today, rightly or wrongly. *Snap!*
So what's the harm in recording some video at a show, as long as you do so in a respectful, unobtrusive manner…and don't sell it for profit? And think of all the amazing amounts of wonderfulness this video has brought to peoples' lives worldwide? Carnegie Hall seats roughly 2800 people, so over four nights that's 11,200 paying customers. So, consider all the people who wanted to be there, but couldn't, for various reasons. Tom's video allowed my friend in Singapore to see Neil work his magic at an incredibly anticipated show that was near-impossible to get tickets to.
I think that's GREAT!
But, hey, i'm just a fan……Elliot's a music mogul businessman protecting his client. I get it, I get it. There are two sides to this coin, and both sides can be argued fervently until you're blue in the face. But I know where I stand:
GREAT work Tom Adams! I hope you win an Oscar for Best Musical Score!!
*Snap!*
You can read the full story here:
***
A Historic Neil Young Concert, Captured by a Crowd
Cobbling together a Carnegie Hall show for online–with some help
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303448204579338600817194242
By JOHN JURGENSEN
Jan. 23, 2014 5:59 p.m. ET
On Jan. 7, Tom Adams went to see a Neil Young concert at Carnegie Hall by himself. It wasn't until days later that he made a connection with a group of other fans who attended. Like him, they had all secretly videotaped the solo acoustic performance, part of a four-night stand by Mr. Young, in his first return to the famed New York venue since 1973.
On Tuesday, Mr. Adams uploaded to YouTube a video of the entire two-hour show, which he had stitched together from footage captured by fellow concertgoers seated around the theater. Most of the video was shot by Mr. Adams, a video producer from Williamsburg, Mass., on a compact Canon camera perched on the railing in front of his $150 mezzanine seat (102, Row AA). All the videos were edited to match a single audio recording made at the concert, which Mr. Adams downloaded from an anonymous source on an online-sharing site.
With most everyone who goes to a concert now packing at least a camera phone, more fans are taking the next step to pool their shots and produce so-called crowdsourced concert videos. Though the legality of most of these projects is murky, some emerge with at least tacit approval from the bands. In 2006, the Beastie Boys helped popularize the concept by handing out cameras to audience members, with the resulting concert film released in theaters. A few years later, Radiohead fans cobbled together their scenes of a show in Prague, which was enhanced by a high-quality audio recording supplied by the band. And Nine Inch Nails devotees have slavishly produced multiple collaborative videos of their own.
Mr. Young views video recording as a scourge of the concert experience. "We find this sort of practice to be incredibly rude toward both the audience and the artist," says Elliot Roberts, the singer's longtime manager. Mr. Adams says he's sensitive to how disruptive hoisted phones and glowing screens can be, and that he's careful not to annoy other fans with his camerawork.
The main reason Mr. Adams sought out other people's footage was that there were holes in his own. During Mr. Young's delicate cover of the Phil Ochs song "Changes," he recalls, "I got a little too adventurous with the camera and one of the ushers came over and told me to put it away." After that, he positioned the camera more discretely on the floor, aimed through railing slats.
At home, he found fan-made videos of songs he was missing or wanted to supplement, then sent the users messages through YouTube asking their permission to borrow them. Then he wove the various clips into his own with editing software, making do with some glitches. During an anecdote by Mr. Young about a guitar with a bullet hole in it, the image is blurry and an on-screen message reads, "Stay tuned...video will return shortly."
Mr. Adams, 44 years old, says sharing the video with fans who couldn't attend the sold-out concerts (which some critics predicted will go down as a landmark in Mr. Young's career), takes him back to his pre-Internet days of trading cassette tapes of the singer's concerts by mail with like-minded fans.
To avoid raising the ire of Mr. Young's camp or coming across as "a creep doing this for financial gain," Mr. Adams prefaced the video with a note encouraging viewers to purchase the singer's official releases. He said he has already declined several email offers from people seeking to buy the video for bootleg concert DVDs.
Write to John Jurgensen at john.jurgensen@wsj.com
We asked TW followers on ThrashersWheatNeverSleeps | Facebook and here's a sample:
Michael Ma: There are thousands of fans that didn't get tickets to the Carnegie show but would have paid decent money to be able to watch a HD stream of the show. I don't think that it would reduce ticket sales either. I couldn't afford to buy a ticket and then fly to NYC but I would have paid $20-30 dollars to watch one of them. Embrace the technology, don't fight it.
Kevin J: it's a double edged sword. if you're holding up a camera in front of me at the concert, fuck you. if i'm at home watching the concert on youtube, thank you.
Paul K: Spent an entire day on the phone and computer trying to get a ticket. No luck! Thought I might have a ticket through a friend and then that fell through. then tried to get a ticket for the balcony throught the secondary market for the final night show. $1,000 for a balcony seat? uh, no thanks! Thanks to Tom for posting this incredible show.
Scooter V: In his book he goes on quite a bit about youtube. I wouldn't film him based on that and I sure wouldn't release an entire concert. Part of this is about the cost of going to see him, he's priced some fans out of attendance. My attitude is it would be cheaper to buy every recording he's ever made than to go see him. It's expensive for him to tour but that's his business. It's interesting but I won't watch it.So what's a blogger to do?
Ignore the reality and not post?
Or embrace the social media and share?
So while we ponder the dilemma, we'll just make a little donation to Athabasca Chipewyan First Nations legal defence fund.
Afterall, it's all about "The Kids", right?
@Johnny 1P5 - good point. We think you're correct and Neil made those comments referring to The Treasure.
ReplyDeleteThe Carnegie shows were not filmed (professionally) unfortunately.
So this footage is likely to show up on NYA Vol #12. ;)
Glad to see you thinking for yourself Thrasher, and not just following the "what would Neil do?" approach!
ReplyDeleteI was going to make the same point about the "A Treasure" footage that was sourced from youtube, and used by Neil.
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand, nobody likes to be distracted by a sea of illuminated phones and cameras at shows.
On the other hand, sometimes we get to see some truly rare and interesting moments.
On the other hand (3 hands?), what sense is it when 45 people raise their cameras to record Old Man at the same time?
It's a tough call, I can see why an artist wouldn't like it, but as a fan, I was excited when video of Crazy Horse doing Surfer Joe materialized last summer.
I was fortunate to go to the Carnegie Hall shows, but for those who couldn't, I bet they're thrilled to be able to see it - just read the youtube comments.
- vertigone
People have been recording shows for as long as I can remember. It's all good as long as your not profiting from it or interfering with the experience. iPhones & camera flashes and LEDs are a nuisance. Hasn't anyone ever heard of masking tape?
ReplyDeleteA guy behind me asked me not to stand up because he was filming. I didn't mind. People generally don't get up to dance to Randy Newman.
All you're doing is recording the "experience." No harm there. And Eliott gets paid big bucks for being Neil's barking dog. He's only doing what he gets paid to do. I bet if Eliott went into cosmetology or something, he'd be sneaking a few of his own.
Shabbat Shalom!
I am very glad the crowd source vid was made . I think it would be greedy and unfair to ban or remove it.
ReplyDeleteNeil once said "piracy is the new radio".
ReplyDeleteI'll gladly watch it and even download a copy for future reference but it feels dirty.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure it's flat out stealing and I'm pretty sure Neil didn't intend for that performance to be plastered all over YouTube.
I'm kind of surprised they haven't taken it down yet. I wouldn't blame them for taking it down.
I can say that because my download is finished wink wink.
But when fans have the means to take a once in a lifetime event and put it together like a concert film for all to see with Neil not being compensated or having any say in the production, it cheapens the whole experience.
We used to listen to the radio when Mohammad Ali would fight and at the end of each round, the station would give an update on the fight. Our imagination would soar and we'd wait for the next update with much anticipation. There was no pay per view. No internet. We were just left hanging for that next report and the excitement built all through the fight until the winner was announced. It was thrilling. Probably more so than actually watching the fight.
To me this is kind of the same. I can listen to the bootlegs and try to make out what Neil's saying in the spoken parts but mostly my imagination is soaring. Oh, what it must be like in that hall?!
And now, there it is. I'll be damn. There's Neil on YouTube. The whole mother fuckin' show. And I'll probably watch it but I might not? I started to watch it but stopped it before he started singing.
It just feels dirty.
Let me ask you a question Thrasher? If someone hacked Neil's library and posted ALL of the Archives, every last bit of it, would you post the link to that too. Make you feel all important like you liberated the material for us fans?
Like I said, it all feels dirty. But I'd probably download those archives as fast as I could, before someone took them down. How long it would take me to actually start listening to them? I honestly don't know.
Negative Man
Thrasher said "The Carnegie shows were not filmed (professionally) unfortunately."
ReplyDeleteGeez, I wonder why not?! Neil films EVERYTHING. Oh, but he didn't film this one. Must have been a personal reason for that don't ya think?
This "Oh boy look what we found" attitude is disrespectful to the very man this site is dedicated to. There goes your "inside" information. I don't think Neil's camp will think as much of you now.
But yeah, like someone else said, way to not just fall into line. What would Neil do?
I think we know.
Negative Man
Bit of a rant...
ReplyDeleteI must say that at the Massey Hall concert, on the right side floor near the back, some absolute dickhead who probably had a permit to be there snapping pictures, completely ruined 'On The Way Home' and 'Helpless' for me and many others. I was so pissed, along with what seemed to be every single person around me, that this guy standing in the aisle with a giant very noisy camera with one of those stupid shutter sounds clicking constantly through the whole of both songs. I mean this guy must have taken 200 pictures, each one creating an annoying song ruining noise. WE ARE THERE FOR AN AUDIO EXPERIENCE, no flashes allowed, that might disturb Neil, but what about the audience, that shutter noise is so much worse than a flash. I mean I desperately wanted to smash this guys face and camera, and he was ALLOWED TO BE THERE! And he had some idiot with him saying 'just one more song' as everybody in the area craned there necks around to scowl at these people. I'll never get that 'Helpless' back, unless someone recorded it. Any real photographer could've got the same shot and only clicked like 4 times, this guy has 200 shots and is going to go thru them and pull the best one or two. You suck at your job buddy! Don't come next time! We all got our own camera's if we want pictures!
And Neil, if it's not Joel Bernstein, don't let these f*^#kers in the venue!
Pissed thinking back
Syscrusher
I really hate people making movies during acoustic NY concerts! Don't mind if they do during an electric or Horsified show because in that case they are always behind me. ; )
ReplyDelete@vertigone - yes, 3 hands would come in handy in this situation. very tricky indeed.
ReplyDelete@MNOTR - "I bet if Eliott went into cosmetology or something, he'd be sneaking a few of his own."
huh? elaborate, if you will.
@ -Man - so feeling like a dirty ol negative man, eh?
But managed to download just in case vid is pulled?
Gee, hypocrisy anyone?
Apparently, you must not of read what we wrote which answers your question.
But we'll spell it our explicitly since you missed it... the video link was published by uber mainstream Murdoch propaganda outlet WSJ. IOW, this vid is out there and viral.
Absolutely, we do not want to encourage rude, disrespectful concert behavior. The live, concert experience is most sacred. For the young pups out there, back in the day, bootlegging occurred in such a discrete fashion no one sitting next to a taper had a friggin clue.
What's been done, has been done and is out there.
Obviously, we're hugely conflicted on the subject. But once WSJ published, the cat's out of the bag and it's up to LM to pull it from YT if they so choose. But they haven't so isn't been tacitly - if not endorsed and approved - tolerated.
Lastly, and you know that we've burned a bridge exactly how? Pls do share since you have such excellent inside info.
@Syscrusher - bummer on Massey and Helpless. As you indicated, this dude doesn't seem to be very professional. Maybe a sports photog or something?
This kind of publicity is good for Neil. It only builds & reinforces his legend status and relevancy. I might even bump him up on RS's Top 20 Guitarists of all time. He would have slipped into obscurity long ago if he didn't throw out a few bones once in awhile.
ReplyDeleteFor a lot of people, this discovery of the Carnegie show is like coming across a rare find in the attic - validation for new fans to follow him and justification to invest their money in his music. It's a commercial, but Neil didn't have to invest his money, did he? It's free publicity! It's good publicity.
The outcome is exactly what publicists hope happens for their client. A renewed interest in Neil's music and more cash to flow to support his ideas and the mighty entourage that protects it.
We all agree that the distraction caused by cameras is ruining the concert experience but now you're trying to justify it as "reality". In doing so and by posting links to concert films, you're just encouraging the behavior Thrasher.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm a dirty old negative man and I'm a hypocrite. Here we go again with the personal attacks that you hate so much Mr. Thrasher. But that's cool. Yeah, I'm torn. I'd love to watch it but it feels so wrong. I still haven't watched it. I downloaded it in case they pull it. I want to leave my options open. I'd raid the vaults too if I could but I would consider myself a thief. That's reality.
In your "Etiquette At A Neil Young Concert" article Thrasher said - "There's a time and place for everything. As you may know, we're all about being discrete. Without getting into too much detail, we've got a bit of a clue about how some of the "pros" pull this off.
IOW, folks bring back quality stuff without anyone around them having the slightest clue.
So if you're going to take a souvenir, be discrete, that's all we're saying.
As for what we use here at TW, we have no idea whether the file was captured discretely or blatantly.
Obviously fans have always wanted to have as much of the experience as they can and we try and be judicious about what we do and don't publish, as you know.
We're just trying to share the memories. ;)"
You seem to be drawing the line between discretely or blatantly. So if I walk in there with my Google Glasses and get a pristine, high quality video, that would be okay because I was discrete? What's the freakin' difference Thrasher?! A grainy concert film is still a concert film. You're advocating the illegal and unapproved STEALING of Neil Young concerts as long as it's done discretely?
Who's the hypocrite here? I point my negative old finger at YOU Thrasher. If someone has the technology (reality) to steal my credit card number while it's still in my pocket, I guess that's all right too? That would be my fault for not having a metal wallet. It's all stealing.
It's ruining the concert experience for the artist and the fans. It's wrong Thrasher. It's an insult to Neil Young and all artists.
Quit encouraging such behavior. We've lost so much to technology. Maybe that's why Neil stepped into that Jack White 1947 record booth to record his new album. He's trying to recapture something that will be lost soon. Quit diminishing greatness because you've got a bit of a clue about how some of the "pros" pull this off.
You of all people Thrasher. Hypocrite indeed.
They should post signs and start confiscating everyone's phones the first time they hold them up. Click. Gone.
Negative Dirty Old Man
Yeah, and I'll admit I was being just a little naive to think you actually have any connections with the Neil Young camp. My bad.
ReplyDeleteNeg Man
On the other hand, it could be a perfectly orchestrated publicity stunt to drive some "good" publicity about Neil.
ReplyDeleteI know it sound calculating and disingenuous, but "protecting the brand" is the name of the game. It doesn't matter what your selling.
This concert video is genuine because it's all Neil and what everyone loves about him. It captures that experience of being in the seat. It's from the perspective of a fan. It's not movie director's vision or a pretentious homage.
It's Neil. All Neil.
Anyone watch Torchwood?
how is this a controversy exactly? there are plenty of neil young full concerts on youtube that are crowd sourced. and who gives a fuck what elliot roberts thinks about the matter? he just wants his cut.
ReplyDeletei'd think that, if anything, neil and his camp would be pissed that the full trunk show is on youtube.
open sourced audience recording is a good thing, as I see it. a win-win all around. but I get it about supporting the artist.
ReplyDeleteto that end, anybody innarested in scoring the GRAMMY NOMINATED "Psychedelic Pill" 180 gram vinyl for under $50?
http://www.popmarket.com/?cid=nl%3A821221157&utm_medium=email&utm_source=generator-popmarket&utm_campaign=email%7C20140124&utm_content=nllink-30f1290d-PopMarket.com%20IMAGE
only a couple hours, when their gone, well, you know.
BTW
don't work for no one, I'm just a fan who caught a break and is paying it forward.
Don't be so hard on Elliot, JJ. It's not about the money with him. It's about protecting the brand name and artistic integrity.
ReplyDeleteMy guess it that they're all leaping for joy over WSJ picking up the story because it's opportunity to advance their brand in a market that can afford to buy the "memories."
Not that we should feel slighted or even think for one second that for one second they're pandering.
They're just doing what they're getting paid to do. You don't think that managers of Oscar nominated actors do the same thing?
For Neil, the crowd sourcing video "humanizes" him and reminds people why we love this guy. Regardless, it reinforces everything we love about this guy. His manager and publicist should get a raise for their ingenuity.
Before "Archives Vol 1" I might have cared, but that box was such a major shafting of Neil's most loyal fans I now don't give a shit. A box set comprising two or three CDs worth of unheard material packaged with existing live albums, and huge chunks of his most popular albums, which he then re-released as individual re-masters a coupla months later, so fans had to go out and buy them again just to get the re-mastered versions of the three or four tunes per album that weren't included on the boxset. Then the latest archive live release, yet another concert from the same period featuring the same songs when fans are baying for later work. And where's all the extra material Blu-ray purchasers were promised? I'm paying £70 each to see Neil and the Horse in London this coming summer (four blokes in plaid). A coupla years ago I spent £60 each to take my wife to see Kylie, who had a massive team of dancers, backing musicians, about fifteen costume changes, and a phenomenal light show. Of course, I wanna see Neil but his pricing policy is daylight robbery, and his releases are purely aimed at milking as much from fans as possible. So screw him - download everything you can.
ReplyDeleteThat 'usable concert footage' was sent in by me to the archives. They then put it on "A Treasure" as bonus material, then...... took it off my website for copyright infringement Talk about hypocritical!!
ReplyDeleteHave you ever heard anything from the legendary late-73 "Tonight's the Night" tour? Thank a taper.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteMorebarn, it was a violation of copyrights, so why are you saying it was hypocritical? He just took back what belonged to him.
Ya know that story about Bobby Zimmerman "Dylan" denying this pilot was in possession of Dylan's first sunburst electric? When the pilot passed away, the family wrote for verification and authentication. The response from Dylan was, if you think it's mine, then why aren't you giving it back?
Reelife Productions knows all about copyright infringements and abuses so I doubt he would put his company at risk for a lawsuit. I think further investigation might reveal there is more to this video than meets the eye.
Hey hey, my my.
@Negative Dirty Old Man - you know probably the only word in the English language as meaningless as hypocritical is terrorism.
ReplyDeleteYou fell right into the rhetorical trap we setup, didn't you?
C'mon. You know we have your number. You've got ours so can't we just call it a truce and move on?
@ morebarn - we have to admit that whole Treasure deal was another strange chapter in the book of NY.
@MNOTR - "further investigation might reveal there is more to this video than meets the eye. " Since we're a little short on time for such things, care to enlighten us on what you're driving at here?
To suggest this is all manufactured would be a surprise and counter-intuitive.
But is Shakey world afterall and it's all just an illusion, right?
I will stay out of the debate. It doesn't matter if we think it is right or wrong. It is a fact of life these days.
ReplyDeleteThe shows were beautiful. No video will ever capture the actual experience. For me, I prefer to just be taken away by the moment. To be present, as completely as possible, to absorb every second I can.....
I got some before and after show pics, but knew there would be a million better shots than I could ever get, on the internet within minutes.
there does seem to be an obsession these days with documenting every moment. To re-live over and over. But hey, it's Neil. I understand...
Peace, Sandy Horne
Been a long time fan of Neil and ALL the Lads & Lasses that made MAGIC, FUN & MUSIC! Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Neil say that audio recording of his shows, shared for free amongst the hardcore fans, was acceptable. He didn't like it, but it was acceptable. To produce a FULL SHOW video without permission...well...How would you feel? Offended and down right mad is my guess.
ReplyDelete"Be nice! Be Nice!"
If this video was given to Neil and permission asked and granted, then yeah...go for it.
Neil cares about every step he takes, man. We care about every step he takes. The Muse isn't going to around forever, people.
Please don't poke Neil or any artist with a stick and expect them to be happy about it. It takes away the Magic of the Muse. Why not respect the gifts we get from the artist(s), themselves. Are we that selfish that we have to take advantage of everyone? Peace!
- Palace in the Sun
I was at the Jan 7th Carnegie Hall show and will savor the memories for the rest of my life. I chose to live in the moment and respect those around me and didn't take any pictures. I was in a lower balcony seat and during the encore noticed some jerks taking tons of pictures from the first few rows and it clearly pissed Neil off and was over-all distracting and very selfish. I think there should be a distinction between videos taken which are done discreetly and tastefully so nobody, not Neil or other fans, are disturbed. Those are technically not allowed but as mentioned in other posts, bootlegs are as old as the music and the policy should be no harm no foul. On the other hand, obnoxious people who disrupt Neil or other fans should be subjected to consequences ... Personally, I watched the crowd sourced video last week and loved it and will cherish the fact i can relive that amazing night. I think it would be punative for Neil or Elliot to take it down ... I'd be more than happy to send Neil and Elliot a check for $20 or $30 if they tell me where to mail the check, seriously ... its the same as Trunk Show ... please just put it out we're dying to pay for it, same for Archives II, III, IV, V, ect ... but bottom line my view is that I'll buy pretty much whatever they put out ... bought the archives in BD, bought most of the vinyl albums years ago, bought most of them again as CDs and DVDs ... my watching this crowd sourced video of Carnegie Hall will only cause me to BUY MORE from Neil not less ... I'll see more shows, ect ... as an aside, I think the comments about Neil pricing out fans is a bit naive ... these shows are special because they're in small venues ... tickets for Carnegie Hall were between $50-200 ($50 is an awesome price btw), and tickets for on sale for weeks before selling out, then they were available on Stub Hub for $1000s the week of the shows ... its clear that Neil left tons of money on the table and anyone complaining about prices is just a complainer ... in summary, my guess is that this crowd sourced video will get around into more hands than just about anything Neil has for many years and he'll see renewed interest from fans who buy up lots of old records and sales and interest will spike ... thats what I hope happens and what I think will happen ... bottom line, especially if these were'nt taped by Neil's camp, you cannot suppress great art ... the Carnegie Hall shows were highlight shows, they were an epic stop over in Neil's storied career ... in this day and age its just tough to control it and I do think the artist deserves to get compensation somehow but I think the days of locking things up in the vault for decades seems to have ended, for better or worse. I say embrace it, the way the Grateful Dead did, make a recorders sections or something and enforce rules that are respectful to the artist and the audience but hey its Neil's show ...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletewhy weren't we having this conversation 2 years ago when someone posted the whole red rocks crazy horse show? or how about the complete, pro shot rock in rio show from 2008? or the complete bonnaroo show from 2003, which rolling stone recently linked to? it's all out there, folks. go check it out.
ReplyDeleteI think we're having a discussion because maybe TW might not be 100% behind the decision to post the video on HIS webpage. After all, he has been actively crowdsourcing using the webpage promoting the life and times of Neil Young. (I can't imagine how much income TW has generated for Neil.)
ReplyDeleteThe key to successful crowdsourcing is putting out quality work representative of the "mission" or the goals." TW has always fulfilled that goal in the eyes of the PTB. (Powers that Be.)
People "volunteering" their role in "crowdsourcing" on behalf of musician, for example, are always taking a risk because it's not "sanctioned" by the PTB. Thrasher has been consistent in the quality and care of this web page.
PTB generally accept crowdsourcing, providing it's truly representative of the art, because it saves them a lot of dough. My guess is that they only go after the crowd "sorcerers" because they do damage to the artists work and wishes.
Simple answers (sorry if others have posted these but I can be arsed to read them all)
ReplyDelete1. Announce at the start that photography (still) is permitted only during the first song and following the encore when the artist accepts the applause. Anyone photographing outside of these constraints will be ejected from the venue.
2. All ticket holders at the event will obtain a free download coupon which they redeem from Neil Young.com of any 'official' video/audio recordings from the tour. Neil only has to record one night and all ticket holders get access to that one.
Kills two birds with one stone.
1) maximises value for money of concert goers.
2) Solves Neil's issue regarding cameras.
I went to four NY&CH concerts last year he had a camera crew at all of them. In stadiums they tend to be recorded anyway for the big screen.
Cameras are irritating, the quality is pants.
However, thank you for making the film. Its a great bootleg for those of us who could never afford Carnegie hall or live too far away.
@Sandy - yes, it's all about that live, concert moment. Nothing else matters.
ReplyDeleteThat magic still can't be captured digitally. ;)
@Palace in the Sun - we hear you about sharing The Muse. Neil cares and so do we.
@Dan1 - good words, my freind. Looks like a CotM.
@james jams: good question. why are we?
@MNOTR - interesting. You think that's the case? We've always found TPTB to be rather hard to gauge. So how much of this is pure spec?
@ 04:21:00 PM, Anonymous - rules, rules, rules. We all know some folks approach rules. That said, something has to give on the whole social media phenomenon sooner or later.
That said, before the Friday CH concert, an announcement was made that clearly stated what the rules for the evening were -- nothing allowed.
@Thrasher
ReplyDeleteMy experience with TPTB is that they "adjust" the calibration accordingly to each situation so it would it be very difficult
to gauge anything using our own "instruments."
Your instrument is your blog. You're a valuable asset, TW, and this blog is absolute proof that "crowdsourcing" works. It works because this blog has proven itself to be an asset, not a liability. Neil, Archives Guy, et al use it to communicate information. It works because you are genuine and honest.
The Reelife video of Carnegie works, too. And Dan1 is right about why it should stay on Youtube. No concert experiences (for artist and audience) were ruined making it which is why the argument driving prohibitive videotaping and photography doesn't apply.
Glad so many of you are enjoying my little concert film…
ReplyDeleteTo be perfectly honest, I'm sort of surprised by all the hoopla surrounding this. This is certainly not the first of its kind. In fact, this type of thing has been happening for several years. I certainly recognize the complexity of the issues involved and definitely agree that there's no definitive "right answer".
The issues and opinions surrounding live music recordings are of great interest to me since I have been a media producer/director/editor for 20+ years and went to school for this stuff… and I've been a drummer in bands since the early 90's…AND I've been trading music since the 80's and still have my treasured cassette collection to prove it:)
People have said 'why don't you just sit and watch the show and enjoy it instead of missing out on the whole show just to record it'…. to me before plenty of times but I did NOT miss out on a fantastic concert - i enjoyed every second of it… and I don't press the camera to my face or be obnoxious by sticking my phone in the air like so many others do. In fact, I barely look at the articulating wide-screen lcd screen of my canon sx30is (35x optical zoom) (and I dim the lcd screen settings, so it's barely visible).. in fact, for most of the show, it was sitting on the floor propped on my jacket…
and to be fair… I don't believe "Neil's Team" was actually "interviewed" - I believe he was emailed by the reporter for a comment on the subject and received the one sentence reply ' we think it's incredibly rude' comment… and I don't even think he was referring specifically to the crowd-sourced video that I produced…I actually think they were referring to the act of sticking a big glowing phone into the air and disturbing everyone around you (which is NOT how I do it…)
- and for the record, I think it is indeed rude and annoying and I too wish people would stop doing it… don't know how to fix this or if we can actually stop it…
The way I see it, and what I mention in the onscreen text at the beginning of the movie… is that this is great advertising ole Neiler… I'd love it if everyone who watched this film, went out and purchased Neil's whole catalog and also donated to the bridge school…
Also… I love the irony in Neil's quote "Piracy is the new radio" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/17/neil-young-piracy-is-the-new-radio_n_1889785.html)
there's a lot more to be said about this but i gotta go for now…I'll leave with one of my favorite Neil quotes:
"Take my advice, don't listen to me"
-from Landing on Water "Hippie Dream
Also you might wanna check out the "other" crowd-sourced Neil show that I put recorded and put together: Neil Young & Crazy Horse full show 11/26/12, TD Garden, Boston
http://youtu.be/AaLdGIOn5Fw
Glad so many of you are enjoying my little concert film…
ReplyDeleteTo be perfectly honest, I'm sort of surprised by all the hoopla surrounding this. This is certainly not the first of its kind. In fact, this type of thing has been happening for several years. I certainly recognize the complexity of the issues involved and definitely agree that there's no definitive "right answer".
The issues and opinions surrounding live music recordings are of great interest to me since I have been a media producer/director/editor for 20+ years and went to school for this stuff… and I've been a drummer in bands since the early 90's…AND I've been trading music since the 80's and still have my treasured cassette collection to prove it:)
People have said 'why don't you just sit and watch the show and enjoy it instead of missing out on the whole show just to record it'…. to me before plenty of times but I did NOT miss out on a fantastic concert - i enjoyed every second of it… and I don't press the camera to my face or be obnoxious by sticking my phone in the air like so many others do. In fact, I barely look at the articulating wide-screen lcd screen of my canon sx30is (35x optical zoom) (and I dim the lcd screen settings, so it's barely visible).. in fact, for most of the show, it was sitting on the floor propped on my jacket…
and to be fair… I don't believe "Neil's Team" was actually "interviewed" - I believe he was emailed by the reporter for a comment on the subject and received the one sentence reply ' we think it's incredibly rude' comment… and I don't even think he was referring specifically to the crowd-sourced video that I produced…I actually think they were referring to the act of sticking a big glowing phone into the air and disturbing everyone around you (which is NOT how I do it…)
- and for the record, I think it is indeed rude and annoying and I too wish people would stop doing it… don't know how to fix this or if we can actually stop it…
The way I see it, and what I mention in the onscreen text at the beginning of the movie… is that this is great advertising ole Neiler… I'd love it if everyone who watched this film, went out and purchased Neil's whole catalog and also donated to the bridge school…
Also… I love the irony in Neil's quote "Piracy is the new radio" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/17/neil-young-piracy-is-the-new-radio_n_1889785.html)
there's a lot more to be said about this but i gotta go for now…I'll leave with one of my favorite Neil quotes:
"Take my advice, don't listen to me"
-from Landing on Water "Hippie Dream
Also you might wanna check out the "other" crowd-sourced Neil show that I put recorded and put together: Neil Young & Crazy Horse full show 11/26/12, TD Garden, Boston
http://youtu.be/AaLdGIOn5Fw
I know that little camera you used, Tom. It's a dandy. I bring mine when I get tickets for front and center mezzanine. That is the best seat in the house. No one is blocking your view.
ReplyDeleteHow would you feel if the TBTB asked you to hand over the video for archival footage?
I think the guy from WSJ is a long-time fan of Neil Young and jumped at the chance to write about the video footage once he saw what he was missing out on all these years. Or maybe he was at the show and relieved that someone videotaped. I always check online the day after a concert to see what I can find.
Maybe this will make Neil Young consider releasing Something/Anything from the recent Carnegie Hall before 2058 (Did we really have to wait 44 years for Live at the Cellar Door?)
ReplyDeleteOr the Canterbury House '68...
ReplyDelete@Reelife_Tom - thanks for the update on this. appreciated.
ReplyDeletecertainly a topic with a lot of passions.
We'll highlight and run as a CotM.
Neil charges astronomical prices to see him anymore. If you guys want to sit around and say he is worth it, go right ahead, I think its absurd. If I paid 1000 to sit in the first few rows i sure as hell would take a picture or video or whatever the hell else I felt like. Respect? Hey Neil, have some respect for your fans. Going to a concert shouldnt be a down payment on a car. ART should be accessible to everyone. Not just the affluent. I love Neil and I love Neil's ART. I don't like Neil's attitude about what he charges folks. You want to see Neil stay cutting edge? Give away tickets, charge 1970 prices, give away free tshirts...(by the way, you can make a tshirt for about.50$ I know , I do it)Its all about the money.
ReplyDeleteProtecting your rights...The DEAD were allowing tapers as long as they were around, think that hurt album sales? Black Crowes have a mobile unit where you can sign up and after the show get a soundboard quality tape of that show...There arre ways around "bootleggin" or whatever you want to call it. I think Neil has gotten absurd with prices etc. Lets be real here...you want to go see some rock and roll go to a bar in the middle of nowhere where 3 bands , with nothing to lose will be playing their asses off in a dimly lit, smoke filled bar room. That is where its at. It is time Neil gives a little back, and that may just be in the form of allowing tapers and or vids of shows folks cannot afford.
@William Whalen. Isn't art in the form of music available to the masses through quality recording and concert videos?
ReplyDeleteExpecting the artist, Neil in this case, to play smoke-filled bar rooms or large venues to accommodate your expectation and definition of "art" is narcissism.
The masses do not dictate the delivery of the art, only the artist can do this. (And I personally don't think Neil sets the ticket prices and has made every effort to provide affordable tickets through pre-sales.)
Of course I don't expect Neil to play a smoke filled bar. My point is that you can still see great music IN a small bar by hungry bands eager to create.
ReplyDeleteI don't expect Neil to do anything. I wish he would lower prices. You may not think Neil has a say in that, but if he doesn't who does? I understand how the "music machine" works. If you think that pre-sales of $250 tickets is affordable, you and I are in a different world. Pay your $$$, thats cool, obviously, but for me, who consumes Neil's ART and BUYS Neils's ART and pays to go see NEIL's ART, I feel I have every right to watch his "crowd-sourced" videos, enjoy them and comment on what I feel is the Artist's betrayal of his fans. That is high prices for concert tickets.
Art is created by Artists , the public consumes it, without the consumer, noone knows of the artist, the artist has no $$…so Neil needs us as much as we need him.
I agree it is not the public's job to say how ART is delivered, however, that being said, because of the ease of taping, you have folks doing what this discussion is about; taping and posting.
All good right? I feel is it alright. I am not selling it, just watching it. Consuming the ART.
Have fun in your $500 seat.
Tell Neil i said hello.